Pocket KK facing a preflop raise & re-raise... did I muff this?

[MisterKing]

Table was fairly loose, with lots of action going on TPTK and hands along those lines post-flop. Pre-flop the table seemed pretty standard for NL$25 on Party -- $3 raises sometimes took the blinds, other times you'd see 4 people to the flop for the same amount. Its worth mentioning that my normal game is 2/4 limit hold'em, so NL isn't my forte.

My question for you folks is: did I make the right move by trying to isolate the re-raiser by pushing my stack in? My plan when initially smooth calling the $1.50 was to get a re-raise in pre-flop -- if I thought someone would not likely raise behind me, I would have raised myself.

Once the action got back to me, I could foreseeably have called, letting the third player in cheap (or perhaps facing a big 3rd raise from him), or pushed. Folding was unattractive though cheap, and CALLING all-in (if it had come down to that) would have been pretty bad. Thus the bet, which was designed to get some folding equity, and perhaps push someone else off KK.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($15.75)
SB ($17.05)
BB ($35.5)
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($32.9)</font>
UTG+1 ($3.5)
UTG+2 ($17.5)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($41.75)</font>
MP2 ($29.35)
MP3 ($27.75)
CO ($12.4)

Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Preflop:
UTG bets $1.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50, 1 fold, MP3 raises to $5, 4 folds, UTG re-raises to $8.50, Hero re-raises all-in to a total of $41.25, MP3 folds, UTG calls.

...

[mythrilfox]

Folding equity does not apply here, as you aren't going to get a hand that beats you to fold (AA).

First of all, you should definitely have re-raised the UTG raiser preflop. Then, say MP3 3-bets and UTG pushes, you can probably fold. As it is, I think this might be a fold anyway. UTG stinks awfully of AA, but I'm very reluctant to say that it's ever correct to fold KK at Party 25. I'd probably just end up pushing like you did, cause I've seen QQ-TT/AK showed down here too many times to justify a fold. But if you have noted either of the players as being tight or solid, you should fold.

[Siawyn]

I would only like to say that the chances of you pushing someone off KK in that game are less than 0. Personally I just like getting the money all-in now like you did... puts a lot of heat on MP3 but it's probably better than just smooth calling and seeing an ace roll off on the flop. It's a loose game, no reason not to shove with your KK there.

[LooseAggressive]

It smells like AA, but as previous posts have said, at the party 25 your KK is going to be very good alot of the times here. I probably still play it like you did. I hope it worked out well for you.

[poboy]

The way you explained your line of thinking makes absolutely no sense at all. Calling UTG's bet hoping that it will be re-raised is a bad idea, because it will rarely be re-raised. Since you lucked out and someone did re-raise you have to push here. Yes folding would have been horrible, calling all-in would NOT be horrible(how can getting all your money in with such a great hand be bad), and pushing is the best of the 3. As far as getting someone else to laydown KK, even if someone else did have them(which is so unlikely I can't believe you brought it up) they would have to be the weakest-tightest player in the world to laydown. So to answer your question yes you muffed it but luckily you were still able to get all-in preflop. If you are afraid to play KK for all your chips, perhaps you might want to take up checkers.

[Allinlife]

what else do you put UTG on? doesn't limp reraise on top of already pot sized bet scream AA/KK? I fold since I am not pot commited on a 1.5$.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
The way you explained your line of thinking makes absolutely no sense at all. Calling UTG's bet hoping that it will be re-raised is a bad idea, because it will rarely be re-raised. Since you lucked out and someone did re-raise you have to push here. Yes folding would have been horrible, calling all-in would NOT be horrible(how can getting all your money in with such a great hand be bad), and pushing is the best of the 3. As far as getting someone else to laydown KK, even if someone else did have them(which is so unlikely I can't believe you brought it up) they would have to be the weakest-tightest player in the world to laydown. So to answer your question yes you muffed it but luckily you were still able to get all-in preflop. If you are afraid to play KK for all your chips, perhaps you might want to take up checkers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the input -- but your tone is a bit harsh for my liking. Though it may not have come through in my description of the table texture, I was extremely sure that it *would* be raised behind me when I called the $1.50 pre-flop. And as I said, if I wasn't sure of this, I would have popped it to $5 myself right away. So consider that a moot point. My real question centered on what my best action was once the action got back to me.

When it did get back to me, I suspected AA was very possible, but not a lock. As many have said, TT-AA and AK/AKs all see all-in calls in the NL$25 games on Party. My read was that AA, KK, QQ, and AKs were all about equally likely for UTG. Correct me if you think this is wrong, but most NL$25 players tend to re-raise all in with AA, as opposed to raising small (which is exactly what UTG did). Min-re-raising might be a savvy play with me left to act, but again this is NL$25, not the $10-20 blinds game at Bellagio.

As for UTG's probable holdings, I'm way ahead of two of those hands, tied with one, and way behind the last (though with at least 2 outs to come back, of course). With $15 already in the pot, the EV of an all-in re-raise was probably very high given that read (if accurate).

Thinking about the difference between 2 players all in pre-flop, or 3 to the flop for $8.50 each, I like the heads up a lot better with KK. I base this on the fact (pointed out by someone above) that a since Ace on the flop puts AK way ahead of me. Likewise with a single Q if one of my two opponents had QQ. In other words, I don't see the benefit of taking a flop here... you're either going to get all the chips in preflop or on the flop (unless an ace falls -- a disaster if a big PF raise would have forced AK to fold), so why not get them in right away and press whatever advantage you have early? So long story short, I think calling is a pretty poor option.

That leaves raising or folding. Yes, I'm only in for $1.50, but to lay kings down here requires a read so strong that I'm not sure it can be made online, at least in a NL$25 game. If I had a ton of PT data on this guy and he was TA-A with an Agression Factor of less than 0.5 and a PFR% of 5 or less, then maybe. But I didn't. So I think folding is out of the question as well.

That leaves the push. KK blows away every holding but AA, which can only be done 6 ways. KK, QQ, and AK can be done 28 ways total. And interestingly enough MP3 says he folded KK -- not sure how credible that is, but it is MORE than 0% possible, as some have intimated. Yeah, it isn't likely, but every time it happens (maybe 1 in 100?) I score a huge profit.

I was not (and am not now) "afraid to play KK for all my chips." Not sure what made you think I ever was. Thanks again everyone.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
It smells like AA, but as previous posts have said, at the party 25 your KK is going to be very good alot of the times here. I probably still play it like you did. I hope it worked out well for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks man, likewise to Siawyn and mythirlfox for your comments. UTG showed down AA to win the pot, but I think this was not played too poorly. The call/re-re-raise is debatable, but my read on being able to do it was very strong.