a bit o Clark or a bit o Donk?

[surfdoc]

Decent 20/40 game at Oceans Eleven. I am in the SB in this hand with AKo. The suits are unimportant so will be left off.

I have been playing my usual tight game and am up a rack or so. The button in this hand is a prop who some of you know. I have not played that much with him but I perceive him to be relatively straighforward and predictable. He seems solid preflop and has enough skill to isolate 3bet and such but plays a bit weak tight postflop. He is also way too emotional at the table and lamenting his bad luck how he hasn't won a hand in 2 hours and that every time he gets a pocket pair someone pairs the inevitable overcard to his pair of tens or whatever. I have only had 1 hand against him this session that I can recall and he bullet folded to my checkraise. The CO is somewhat unknown and seems to be a pretty typical player.

The 22 hand clark played had me thinking about ways to possibly improve by taking a few pots away from my opponents when the timing was right. Was it right?

Folded to CO who open raises. Button 3 bets. I pause for a second and then call 2.5. (I can feel the button let out a barley audible whine when his isolation failed). BB folds. 3 to the flop for 10 small bets.

Flop: Q, J, 3

checked to the button who bets, I call, CO calls.

Turn: 2

I bet, CO calls, button curses under his breath and mucks.

River: 5

I check planning on calling.

[holdemfan]

Nice play. I like this a lot. You probably got the best hand to fold and isolated the weak hand stealer. You may be beat but your chances are better now. I might have bet on river but check call sounds good too.

[surfdoc]

The reason I checked the river is that I don't think a better hand will fold or a worse hand will call.

[worm33]

u dont think he will fold 88 j10 etc something weak that has you beat? I dont like it with this flop. it came qj, what do they have that missed?

[surfdoc]

He is getting almost 10:1 here and I think if he was going to fold 88 he would have on the turn. He may fold a hand like J,T but I think it unlikely.

[Turning Stone Pro]

This is the problem with people like Clark and Angelo who post questionable advice, mainly to be entertaining, I believe, and some poor saps who are trying to learn this game take it for gospel and rely on it.

While I dont mean to be disrespectful to the poster (he is merely going on poor advice), I don't think I have ever seen AK played so poorly. These are OBVIOUS steal raises from the CO and the Button. Cap the damn thing in the small blind and lead on the flop. If it gets raised, you can check and fold the turn if you dont improve. This is the proper play.

Checking and calling and letting two inferior hands make second, third or fourth pair while you call along, then bet into the players on the turn, with this board, is horrendous.

TSP

[Paluka]

Why would you play this hand this way postflop rather than just capping preflop? This hand is atrocious.

[Turning Stone Pro]

This hand was played terribly. You will go broke soon playing like this. With the call on the flop and lead on the turn, any semi-intelligent player with any piece of that board is going to smell a rat and call it down.

TSP

[2ndGoat]

Cap it preflop.
Pick a better spot to make an unnatural-looking steal bet.

2ndGoat

[Tommy Angelo]

Hi surfdoc,

I think betting the turn into two players when you don't have a pair and you don't know what they have and there's still the river to come when you'll have to go first again is not the best choice.

If getting dealt AK routinely makes you react in such a way that you cannot go all the way through a hand without making a bet or a raise, that's fine and normal, but in that case, I think you should get your need to flare-up out of the way early, before the flop and/or on the flop, when nobody knows anything anyway. But if you have the patience to just see how it goes with your AK, for as long as it goes, then checking the turn on this hand would have been a great time to use it.



Tommy

[mauisupaman]

Hey Doc,
Looks like you're getting some heat from the other guys. I think you were just trying out a new play here. On the river I think I woulda led again. I don't think the CO has a hand strong enough to raise you with and if you were going to call anyway why not just take the initiative instead?
A hui hou,
Adam

[anatta]

Given you preflop call, it seems a flop check-raise is easily the best play. Prop, I think his name is Steve, God he whines...will fold to a turn bet since he reads you as tight (as he does me). I actually respect his game other than the tilting and crying...

Hand vs. Steve: He sits down, posts. I am in BB. I know he will raise any two. I three bet my any two. He whines. Flop KQJ he mucks 88 face up. Bad flop for him.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like you're getting some heat from the other guys. I think you were just trying out a new play here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct about me trying something new. It felt wierd at the time. Funky, unusual, and well outside the "normal" way to play it. As far as the heat I am taking, I have no problem with that. I posted this hand because it was odd and I am here to learn and get better.

Let me at least try to explain my play on the turn here since that seems to be the strangest. The button was sitting so damn close to me that I could feel his disappointment when I entered the pot. I have seen him bet his pocket pair into overcards on the flop several times before and then check behind on the turn. I made a read based play here that my leading the turn after calling his raise PF and flop bet was that I had a big hand and was fearful of a turn checkthrough. I also thought that to HIM it would look like I was trying to trap the CO in between. Finally, with 4 clean outs to the nuts and 6 more outs that may or may not be good I was likely going to call the turn anyway. You have to trust me here that it is very unlikely the button will raise here even if he has TPTK. My river play was probably wrong here as the CO only has to fold a pair here one time in 8 to make this a bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand vs. Steve: He sits down, posts. I am in BB. I know he will raise any two. I three bet my any two. He whines. Flop KQJ he mucks 88 face up. Bad flop for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes anatta, that is what I am talking about.

[SA125]

"I think betting the turn into two players when you don't have a pair and you don't know what they have and there's still the river to come when you'll have to go first again is not the best choice."

Tommy, was this mistakenly posted here instead of mikel.'s 40-80 AQo hand? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

SteveA.

[surfdoc]

CO checked behind on tht river and flashed K,T for the missed OESD and MHIG. The button almost lost his lunch when he realized the pocket pair he folded was good. I felt dirty sweeping the chips but it still felt good.

[CardSharpCook]

what's that saying about God and drunks, fools, and babies???

Which one were you?

The next time you get dealt AK in the big blind, borrow some balls from your neighbor and play it like a man. It sickens me that you actually won money playing this hand like you did. What I love most is your plan of calling any river bet.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand vs. Steve: He sits down, posts. I am in BB. I know he will raise any two. I three bet my any two. He whines. Flop KQJ he mucks 88 face up. Bad flop for him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Where's the problem here? If I had raised with 88 and gotten three-bet by the BB, I would fold on a KQJ flop too. It's not as if he knew that you had random cards (right?). So what's the lesson here?

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand vs. Steve: He sits down, posts. I am in BB. I know he will raise any two. I three bet my any two. He whines. Flop KQJ he mucks 88 face up. Bad flop for him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Where's the problem here? If I had raised with 88 and gotten three-bet by the BB, I would fold on a KQJ flop too. It's not as if he knew that you had random cards (right?). So what's the lesson here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that this example is trying to show that my read on this player was pretty close. If the flop in the hand above was Q,2,3 the action still would have gone bet, fold. I think that is what anatta was trying to say although I could be wrong.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
what's that saying about God and drunks, fools, and babies???

Which one were you?

The next time you get dealt AK in the big blind, borrow some balls from your neighbor and play it like a man. It sickens me that you actually won money playing this hand like you did. What I love most is your plan of calling any river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, who the hell are you. Did you even read this thread. Thanks for the ever so helpful feedback. Maybe you should take your 25 posts and borrow some balls of your own allowing you to post a reponse before 5 of the regulars have already laid down the hammer. You may also consider jumping in to provide some constructive viewpoint instead of littering up the forum with such useless crap.

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what's that saying about God and drunks, fools, and babies???

Which one were you?

The next time you get dealt AK in the big blind, borrow some balls from your neighbor and play it like a man. It sickens me that you actually won money playing this hand like you did. What I love most is your plan of calling any river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, who the hell are you. Did you even read this thread. Thanks for the ever so helpful feedback. Maybe you should take your 25 posts and borrow some balls of your own allowing you to post a reponse before 5 of the regulars have already laid down the hammer. You may also consider jumping in to provide some constructive viewpoint instead of littering up the forum with such useless crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO What a great reply to some inane BS... I think you analyzed hand well... should have bet river though and you have acknowledged that... I definitely think you read the button correctly... and got him to fold best hand... NH

I do have question though... If you thought button would bet turn... would you CR?? Now that would be a great play... and like you said 4 clean outs to nuts and 6 outs to probable best hand?? Just wanted your opinion?

[Turning Stone Pro]

While I disagreed with the way you played the hand, this was one of the funniest responses I have ever read.

Good Luck,

TSP

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
I do have question though... If you thought button would bet turn... would you CR?? Now that would be a great play... and like you said 4 clean outs to nuts and 6 outs to probable best hand?? Just wanted your opinion?


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Brent. Welcome to the forum. While the turn checkraise is viewed by some as proverbial show of strength, I am really not thrilled about putting in 2 bets (or more) with Ace high. Although the button here can be pushed off a hand, he generally will not bet the turn without a strong holding. I think you can tell from other responses earlier in this thread that what you are considering would be a suboptimal play.

[anatta]

I said bad flop for him, implying his fold was correct. I posted it because the opponent is the kind of guy that you want to make moves on. He is predictably tricky. He had a hand this time and I thought obviously he played it fine, except for the tells and showing his hand.

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do have question though... If you thought button would bet turn... would you CR?? Now that would be a great play... and like you said 4 clean outs to nuts and 6 outs to probable best hand?? Just wanted your opinion?


[/ QUOTE ]

Surf--
Thanks for the welcome... actually I have been member for some time... just hadn't posted in over a year... so I lost the count on my posts... no big deal...

My only thought was if you were sure he would bet... like 100% sure would you then go for a C/R? Think you played hand well though...

Hi Brent. Welcome to the forum. While the turn checkraise is viewed by some as proverbial show of strength, I am really not thrilled about putting in 2 bets (or more) with Ace high. Although the button here can be pushed off a hand, he generally will not bet the turn without a strong holding. I think you can tell from other responses earlier in this thread that what you are considering would be a suboptimal play.

[/ QUOTE ]