Can I do This?

[sthief09]

I've been doing this a lot lately. on a board like that, I felt it likely he was semi-bluffing. I have a feeling this might be a mistake though if I use it too much

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">8 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

[Entity]

I do this a lot, but often I prefer raise flop, bet turn, and check river when there's grey area, because it gets me to showdown for 2BB rather than 2.5.

Rob

[BottlesOf]

You gotta KNOW your oppponent for this to kick ass.

[J.R.]

Do you do it with your have big hands as well? I do and think a bit of both is great. For whatever it is worth I see this bet out line with a small pair more than I see the check-raise becuase of the prevalence of the flop 3-bet with overcards.

I don't think its so much the frequency that can be problematic but the opponent against whom you do this to- IMO you want the semi-bluffing type, the bet and fold to a raise type and the frequent opponent type especially if you ocassionally wait till the turn with stuff like AA and KK in this spot as well.

But take notes here, cause this is a very common situation that you can exploit if its an opponent you see often- if they fold to the turn raise after this betting pattern wait until the turn with unimproved big cards more often, and if they pay off wait until the turn with big hands and don't get frisky with big cards when they bet into you on ragged boards (I guess all this is blatently obvious but I already typed it out so I'll post it anyway).

[J.R.]

I type too many words too slowly.

[ElSapo]

I like Entity's line more against unknown players. Against a better player who will fold, I like your line (assuming he's not drawing and has something fold-able).

[stinkypete]

10 handed 6 max is my favourite game.

[PokerBob]

Bet the river. That's my first reaction. Such a line works if you do the same thing with an overpair, as now BB may fold to your river bet. I don't think you can win the pot by checking behind here.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can win the pot by checking behind here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you underestimate the ability of someone to call with 6 pair outs plus possible staright outs or just an A (which has a gutshot on the turn). But I think the real issue is that this:

[ QUOTE ]
BB may fold a better hand to your river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't happening after your turn raise gets called.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BB may fold a better hand to your river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't happening after your turn raise gets called.

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It could happen if it's something like A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, but I agree that the better hands you fold here are so rare that the river bet is -EV.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river. That's my first reaction. Such a line works if you do the same thing with an overpair, as now BB may fold to your river bet. I don't think you can win the pot by checking behind here.

[/ QUOTE ]


no... when he calls my turn bet, he's drawing or he has something. he's not going to fold a better hand or fold a worse one

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
10 handed 6 max is my favourite game.

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah, the converter doesn't like full 10/20 games. I guess it's because no one ever plays them.

[sthief09]

well actually I tend to fastplay my good hands, but to mix things up, and/or if I think my opponent will pay off, I'll occasionally (maybe 1/5 of the time) wait until the turn to raise. I just think waiting for the turn to raise is an obvious way to play a big hand, so I think it puts a lot of pressure on my opponent. sometimes it works, but a lot of the time I raise drawing to 3 or 6 outs, which hurts EV-wise.

something I thought about today is just calling down if I want to get to showdown. generally if an opponent has a marginal hand with showdown value he'll check with the intention of calling. if he has crap, he'll bet. if I just call down, I think I put myself in a good spot on the river, since my opponents typically don't value bet enough, and I can capitalize on that by picking off some bluffs.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
generally if an opponent has a marginal hand with showdown value he'll check with the intention of calling

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Its this sitatuation (and the spot where the opponent is semi-bluffing a worse hand) that the turn raise with AK may have merit. I wasn't trying to say you should always/frequently wait until the turn with a big hand (as it often lets the opponent off the hook easier), but you need to occasionally if you are going to pop the turn with unimproved hands as well from time to time.

[ QUOTE ]
sometimes it works, but a lot of the time I raise drawing to 3 or 6 outs, which hurts EV-wise.

[/ QUOTE ]

very true, but when they fold when you have 6 outs it really feels good EV-wise.