My new move: The Turn Check Raise

[SuitedSixes]

Many posters have noticed that the $11s are tightening up, so I am thinking of ways to adjust to this. One of the things I am starting to try is to steal more pots so that I have more chips come bubble time. I read a Tommy Angelo post where he said that he always believes a turn check-raiser has the goods. Instinctively, I think I always believe this as well so I thought I would try to exploit it. Has anyone had any success with this? Example:

Blinds 100/200 6 left. I have 1000ish so does villain.
I have a pretty good (not great hand) like KT in the BB. Button raises to 400 and I call.

Flop comes a non-threatening J63 (Pot 900). I will lead out with 300 trying to pick it up right there. Villain calls.

Turn comes some other card, non-threatening. I will check and re-raise if the button bets pot size or less. I think that this screams set or two pair which I think can get lots of hands to lay down. Too risky?

[Pepsquad]

This is a GREAT move, and has many times gotten me to lay down my TPGK I suspect. This move is so good because it builds a nice pot but is easy to bail on if your check-raise is called or re-re'd. If your opponent doesn't have 2 pair or better it REALLY puts them to the test.

[rjb03]

You don't really have enough chips to even be making decisions on the turn here.

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]
Too risky?

[/ QUOTE ]

He can't even fold ace high here, let alone TPTK... checkraising on the turn doesn't really apply in the situation you described, it is effective when stacks are deeper and the villain will still have healthy chips if he folds.

If you did the situation you described you would lose your whole stack often...

[Irieguy]

In the situation you describe, you only have 3 options that make any sense, tactically:

1. Fold preflop if the button is a medium stack with a tight image and you think you have good fold equity from the SB and button.

2. Move all-in preflop if the button is raising with top 50% hands or worse

3. Stop and go if the button seems tighter than usual.

A check-raise on the turn in NL holdem is only going to be a tactic that you can effectively use when the blinds represent less than 5% of your stack or so.

Irieguy

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

Blinds 100/200 6 left. I have 1000ish so does villain.
I have a pretty good (not great hand) like KT in the BB. Button raises to 400 and I call.


[/ QUOTE ]

800 left, 900 in the pot.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop comes a non-threatening J63 (Pot 900). I will lead out with 300 trying to pick it up right there. Villain calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? You've just bet a measly 1/3 pot leaving yourself with 500 chips on a 1500 chip pot. That's terrible. What's worse is that you are planning a check-raise on the turn?

This is horrendous. You need to rethink this hand completely.

eastbay

[Sam T.]

I think folks are getting a bit caught up in the details here. I agree that stack sizes in this example are a problem, but the point about check-raising with air is risky (obviously), but not a bad idea.

Where I think this move works quite well is if you actually have a hand. As in:

AQs in MP. You raise 3BB, and get a caller in LP.

Flop: Q74r.

You bet 1/2-2/3 the pot, and get called.

Turn: Brick.

You check, and opponent thinks: "I was going to fold to a bet, but he missed the flop, tried to take down the pot with a continuation bet, and is shutting it down. I should bet here with my pair of tens."

So he bets, and then you bring down the hammer.

Obviously you and the opponent need deep stacks for this to work (ie. don't try this on party), but it can be pretty good stack-builder.

Note: As a history teacher, I need to cite my sources. I'm pretty sure I learned this from EmarkM.

[Scuba Chuck]

Okay, there is no absolute answer to this question. So let's quantify some potential winning scenarios.

First of all, if you're a good player in the $11s or $22s, (which I consider any 2+2er to be), then you are aware that the poker skills of the fish at these tables is limited. I take the check raise at these tables to be a clear sign that my opponent has a hand! (Up to you to define what that is - For example I check raised and reraised again with my AA against 88 last night).

I think there is a lot more information 'gathered' by us 2+2ers when fish check raise, than there is when fish are check-raised. So yes, there is danger check-raising fish with crap. And even more so, when they are extremely left short stacked by not calling.

That being said, I can't tell you how many times I have raised a guy post flop with nothing, just to put the guy allin and get it over with and he folds. That left the guy with 90 chips in level 4 (50/100 blinds)????

So I think the risks of bluffing here are pretty much what they are always. What is your read on the guy you are playing? Will he fold?

Finally, and this may be of more importance. How will this affect your table image if/when you are called? Will this help your game going forward or hurt it?

In conclusion, for me at least, I don't find many winning scenarios for this to be profitable. My best bluff check raise is in headsup scenarios ITM. I don't ever want to be called here, so I don't risk it earlier.

Scuba cents...

PS - what's with the comment that the $10+1s are tightening up? I've never heard it. If so, the $22s are loose as ever.

[pooh74]

According to suited, calling 400 PF leaves 600 each...then a 300 bet on flop, 300 left...then a check raise on turn? With what? 200 bet, then 100 raise? hint, he aint foldin.

This might be a nice move at 20 level with 1500 stacks, but there's not much upswing there either cas even if it works, youll end up with maybe 1600+ which is a nominal amount at the beginning of a SNG.

[Merlyn22]

There is a very good situtation to use this move of check-raising on the turn. When you are in a hand with just one or two people. The flop comes say something like this:
Js 6d 6h
You check, your opponent bets. You call and check raise him on the turn. You're making it look like you are slowplaying the trips on the flop. I use this move a lot if I don't think my opponent has much. With a flop like this against one or two opponents a turn check-raise if VERY effective as long as your opponent can lay down his hand and still have some chips.

[SuitedSixes]

I appreciate all of the feedback. I think that Irieguy nailed it, this move needs to be done with a higher stack/blind ratio and probably isn't effective in a SNG environment . . . certainly not on Party, certainly not in the 800 starting chip levels, and certainly not in the situation I described (thanks eastbay).

/still looking for ways to adjust to a tight SNG.

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
/still looking for ways to adjust to a tight SNG.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about exploring new hunting grounds?

[texasrattlers]

Excellent analysis by everyone. I sometimes use the "bet-check-raise" when I have a good hand and can remember to do it. It is very effective. As Sam pointed out, checking after betting screams weakness, which your opponent is all to happy to bet at.

I hadn't thought much about the potential this type of play has as a bluff. I will have to try it at some point.

[SuitedSixes]

I've been trying it when I actually have a hand, and all the "smart guys" are right, the players who know what they are doing HAVE to call. They are pot committed by the time we get there. I guess it it more of a "get all of the chips move" than a good bluff move like I had previously hoped.

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]

still looking for ways to adjust to a tight SNG.


[/ QUOTE ]
Adjust your expected ROI% a few notches down. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Unfortunately, the tight players are not the ones paying for our (2+2'ers) profits. You may still be the best player at the table, but not to the same extent. Its no longer taking candy from babies. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Getting fancy probaly isnt the answer, either. The game just inst as exploitable (lucrative) as it once was.

[Daliman]

Strictly a deep stack move vs a decent/good player.