either way ahead or way behind was my thinking

[jt1]

PP 3/6 tight passive table. CO is loose passive. I have A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif in MP3.

Folded to me. I raise. CO calls. All else fold

(2.5 bb) A /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet. CO calls

(3.5 bb) J /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check. CO bets. I call

(5 bb) Q /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet...

I thought I could represent a straight here scaring trip Jacks into just calling while preventing lesser hands from checking it through. Turn and river comments appreciated.

[Redd]

Even if it "works" and you scare him into calling a jack, you still lose the hand. I can't think of any worse hands that are calling here, and you won't fold anything better.

What does everyone think about bet-folding the turn to avoid the whole situation?

Once again, I'm disclaiming that I'm a micro guy, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

Redd

[jt1]

No Redd, understand where you are coming from, but folding is disaster. if you bet turn and get raised then you have to call down. That second undercard seems to propel fish into bluffing. I always bet this situation, but I checked this time, which is why I posted it. Any other thoughts?

And your second point about not knowing of any other hands that would call here is also wrong. Any Ace will call here and many players will call any pair at all.

[Harv72b]

Bet the turn. If you check to him he's going to bet any A, a J, and possibly a lower pocket pair, so you end up in this situation where you don't know where you stand. If you get raised by a LP, he probably has the J, and you can fold this small pot. If he just calls, he's either got an A (probably with a smaller kicker) or that PP.

After check/calling the turn, I don't like betting out the river at all. Like he said above, you aren't going to fold a better hand, so all you're really accomplishing is spending the same bet you could have check/called with, while setting yourself up to be raised by a better hand.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
If you get raised by a LP, he probably has the J, and you can fold this small pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying that I shouldn't have bet the turn. I don't think that anyone should fold, however, to a turn raise. The pot would be 6.5 bb at that point and that's a nice size pot. The only thing you can beat is a bluff or semi bluff, but you are getting 3.25-1 that he is bluffing. And those aren't bad odds.

on second thought, villian is passive so maybe those arn't good odds.

[shant]

Against a straight-forward, passive player, I would bet and fold to a raise on that turn.

As for the river, I don't understand your thinking here. Why would anyone put you on exactly KT heads up based on how the hand played out? Any J should be raising you as well as better A's, and you're now splitting with AT and lower. I check-call.

[jdl22]

I think betting the turn, folding to a raise and betting the river if he just calls is better. This guy is passive which in my world means loves to call and hates raising. If he raises then you will be getting 6.5:1 on a call with a probable 2 outer so folding would be the move. Again, I'm going with your passive read. What's your line when a 7 comes on the river? The turn play can't be evaluated well unless you tell us your plan for the river when a blank hits .

As for your river I'm on the fence but leaning toward not liking it. You will get called by KQ, QT, and probably a few random pocket pairs that you beat. I'm not sure that there are more of these hands out there than hands that beat you, but I think it's pretty close. There is no chance you will get a better hand to fold here. What makes me lean toward preferring check/call given the action is that you would probably have to call a raise but will be behind most of the time he raises.

Something you apparently haven't noticed based on some of your comments is that you only chop with a weaker ace. If he has A2 his hand is the same as yours - aces and jacks with a queen kicker.

[tolbiny]

"3.25-1 that he is bluffing. And those aren't bad odds."

Those are terrible odds. If he is bluffing 30% of the time you need to have an agreesive note next to his name. Also, if you call his raise on the turn, do you call the bet on the river? Changes your effective odds.
Bet the turn, fold to a raise.

[jt1]

I don't think 3.25-1 is bad, and that includes the river call, if he is a some unknown fish. But as I remembered in my post, because I labeled him as passive, 3.25-1 is pretty bad.

My plan on the river was to check call, but when that Queen came I thought that this was an opportunity to make sure that a worse pair couldn't check it through.

Against an aggressive opponent, this line I took isn't that bad, I think. And I am one who will always bet and call down a raise here. Against a passive opponent a bet and fold to a raise is best.