Fun with AJs

[brizzypare]

Hero has AJs UTG. I raise.

UTG+1 re-raises me.

SB caps.

Hero...?

Here's my logic (which seems flawed):

SSHE says if you get a raise and re-raise behind you, when it gets back to you, you use the same criteria as if you were cold-calling from EP. AJs is in that list so I called. However, I know it takes strong holdings to be able to re-raise a re-raise, so I'm not sure about the strength of my hand at this point. I figure for just two extra bets with the chance to win ten (UTG+1 will surely call), I have to call, but I'm pretty sure I have a slim chance of winning (maybe catching a straight or flush or get lucky and have my ace be live against QQ and KK or something). So, I know I'm behind at this point, but even with a 20% chance of winning (maybe lower with implied odds?) I should call. This seems like iffy logic to me, though, so I'm looking for any input as to what to do in this situation. Thanks in advance for any replies.

[private joker]

This is probably too loose of me, but I'd call with AJs and fold AJo.

[GreywolfNYC]

This is an auto-muck for me UTG.

[twankerr]

I don't see this being a call facing typical raisers. The hands that could three-bet you might be AA-TT, AK, AQ. The hands that could three-bet the re-raiser would be something like AA,KK,QQ,AKs.

Against a range of hands like this, you can never be sure where you stand. An ace still has you behind AK,AQ and a jack only puts you ahead of someone with TT. Similarily, if an ace comes and they were both on big pairs any card ten or higher that comes will put a possible set out there.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see this being a call facing typical raisers. The hands that could three-bet you might be AA-TT, AK, AQ. The hands that could three-bet the re-raiser would be something like AA,KK,QQ,AKs.

Against a range of hands like this, you can never be sure where you stand. An ace still has you behind AK,AQ and a jack only puts you ahead of someone with TT. Similarily, if an ace comes and they were both on big pairs any card ten or higher that comes will put a possible set out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the other hand, AJs makes the nut straight and flush, and thus the implied odds are tremendous, making this 2SB call worthwhile if you pick up a nice draw on the flop. The other players look committed to the hand and you stand to earn a huge chunk if you hit. Getting at least 10:2 on this PF call, I think AJs is worth a look at the flop.

[mack848]

Calling here is recommended in loose games by SSHE. In tight games they suggests mucking AQs. This suggests that (they think) there is not a lot in it, either way.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
This is an auto-muck for me UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. Do you mean after the raises, or preflop in general? If you mean in general...ugh.

Rob

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is an auto-muck for me UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. Do you mean after the raises, or preflop in general? If you mean in general...ugh.
Pre-flop in first three seats after the BB. Always. Yeah, I know. Ugh.
Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

[Gatts]

Why the held would you fold AJs in EP?

[GreywolfNYC]

First of all, I should start by saying that I'm speaking of full ring game conditions. If the game is short-handed, 6 max for example, AJ is definitely a raising hand from EP. In a full ring game this hand is too weak to raise with from the first three after the BB. I should also point out that I do not open-limp in these games. Ever. Again, short-handed I will sometimes depending on the type of players I'm up against. Against typical internet players I'll open-limp will all kinds of marginal hands. Just not in a full ring.
That said, AJs is something I will limp along with behind an EP limper when I'm in MP. Same as I would with Axs, because the real strength of the hand is its nut flush potential. If I'm in late position and a MP player open-raises, I will sometimes three-bet it and sometimes fold. Depends again on the raiser.

[mistrpug]

[ QUOTE ]
In a full ring game this hand is too weak to raise with from the first three after the BB. I should also point out that I do not open-limp in these games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chances are you're leaving a lot of money at the table.

[Avatar]

Stick around here a bit Grey and read lots. You have much to learn.

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
Stick around here a bit Grey and read lots. You have much to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll be the first to admit that. We all have much to learn. However, before you get just a little too smug, let me say that I stand by what I said. What is it that you take issue with? Folding AJ in early position? By the way, AJ is a hand that Sklansky called "garbage" (or soemthing close to that) in Getting the Best of It. Or do you take issue with never open-limping? Yes, I know, I know. SSHE, the new Bible, recommends it with a lot of hands. But do us a favor, shoot an e-mail off to Howard Lederer and ask him what he thinks about it. If you do I think you might actually learn something too.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
But do us a favor, shoot an e-mail off to Howard Lederer and ask him what he thinks about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you ask him the same, but ask him to tailor the advice to a typically loose-passive 2/4 game? I'm not sure what he'd say, but frankly, I don't think it matters. AJo is profitable in EP for the majority of the players here at this site, and AJs is even moreso.

Folding it is too tight. I'm always surprised when someone isn't raising it, let alone is folding it.

Rob

[bottomset]

what yr was "Getting the best of it" written, if its pre2000, it doesn't really apply to these games

AJ still has good toppair making ability to go with its nutflush potential, it wins a fair amount of hands with a pair of aces or jacks ..

i think its pretty close on fold or call the 2bets, the pot is big now, so you can be more liberal with calling raises, leaning towards calling

[GreywolfNYC]

Thanks for an intelligent reply, Rob. However, I still disagree. Also, when I mentioned Lederer I was referring specifically to the question of open-limping, not his play of AJ in particular.

[Entity]

I don't want this to be a pointless debate, but since we're all here to learn, why are you folding AJs? Do you just not feel comfortable playing hands (in general) in EP?

I'm going to try to avoid being dogmatic, but when the hand is very profitable in EP for the majority of good postflop players, there's something to be said for playing it.

A couple of points:

1) It's ok to open-limp with good multiway hands. AJo is not a good multiway hand; AJs is. It's not even that bad to open-limp in some situations with hands like AJo and KQo, because it will encourage players to open-limp with suited hands that you will dominate postflop if/when you pair up (ie, limping with AJo will often allow people to limp with A7s and A8s and such).

2) When you raise hands like AJs, you'll still get called by worse hands, especially when you have good table selection. At these limits, KTo is a monster for a lot of these players; they'll call you with that, any ace, and worse, even when you raise preflop from EP. Consequently, raising from EP often ends up being a good pot-building raise.

Frankly, the strength of this hand is too much, as long as you play decently postflop (which should be the goal of all of us) that throwing this hand away is simply leaving money on the table.

Finally, one point on SSH:

SSH, while many people here treat it as the bible, was written largely from the collective of advice that comes from these forums. Ed Miller, as you probably know, is a well-respected poster on these forums, and while the book is largely his, the advice is shared not necessarily because we read it there, but because we've come to the same conclusion from trial and error. The book simply helps some of us solidify our postflop decisions. His preflop charts, which never advocate open-folding AJs, are based upon a winning formula which many of us share. They aren't just made up.

I hope, over time, you can revisit this subject in your mind, and possibly give playing this hand a try. I'm certain you'll end up with positive results.

Rob

[Gatts]

Hey, Grey.

AJo in EP has been debated many times before, I think it's best to raise it everytime, a lot of people muck it or limp.

However, AJs is *much* different. You're not realizing how much value suitedness adds to your hand, AJs in a full ring game is almost as good as AKo.

[QTip]

I'm in complete agreement here. I raise PF with AJos let alone AJs in EP in most games. I remember Matt Slansksy replying to a posted quiz about AJos a couple of months ago. He said definitely raise "because people suck". To the raise and reraise after my raise...I call and pray for my suits or JJJ /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[BottlesOf]

Grey, you're weak-tight, Grey. You gotta stop quoting poker advice from 1989! The game done changed. Not raising AJs in ep is lousy, Grey. And are you saying you like to open-limp with marignal hands in shorthanded games? That's not cool, Grey. Stick around bro and soak in the advice like a sponge, this place is really helpful.

</elysium>

[sfer]

My impression was better. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1167312&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

[BottlesOf]

Yea, this guy's new. I didn't want him to think I was ripping on him. Next time I'll try harder. Yours was very good.

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
Grey, you're weak-tight, Grey. You gotta stop quoting poker advice from 1989! The game done changed. Not raising AJs in ep is lousy, Grey. And are you saying you like to open-limp with marignal hands in shorthanded games? That's not cool, Grey. Stick around bro and soak in the advice like a sponge, this place is really helpful.

</elysium>

[/ QUOTE ]
The phrase "weak-tight" gets thrown around so much that it means nothing to me, Johnny. As for open-limping with marginal hands in short-handed games I probably have a much different idea of what a 'marginal' hand is than others do, perhaps yourself included.

[BottlesOf]

I was horsing around a little. But you do have some seriously misguided notiongs about winning Hold'em. Books written just 2 years ago have parts that are quite out of date,and you are talking about 15 year old advice. We've beaten to death that DS and MM don't play in today's Partyesque games, and that much advice in HPFAP doesn't fit today.

Forget our perhaps different notions of what is marginal. Open-limping in SH games is just bad. Period. There are some unique situations where I imagine it's optimal, but with marginal values, those opportunities are few indeed. You should spend time in the HUSH forum, post some hands where you open limp, and learn why what you're doing is incorrect. (Or perhaps, learn that you are right, and you can teach me something.)

Also the AJs thing is just sickening. Do a search, read SSH, I don't want to get into this particular debate any further.

All the best,

JBB