Who sees the Turn w/Pocket Pairs???

[Sasnak]

I'm on a 200BB downswing over the past two weeks so I'm playing tightly preflop and really pushing my big hands per SSH.

Is it just me or should I be seeing the turn with pocket pairs. My standard rule is, "no set, no bet" unless of course I am holding an overpair. AA-JJ aren't to be included, but say 44's thru 99's.

I've had a number of my AA/KK and AK busted to guys hitting their sets post flop. And there are times I dump only to see my card hit the turn.

What are some standards here with the 2+2 crowd? Dump if you don't hit? Take one off or dump for 1SB if calling a raise preflop due to pot and implied odds?. I'm beginning to get weak with PP's and need to get out of the funk.

[davelin]

Without close to pot odds to call my assumed 2-outer, I usually fold to a bet on the flop with low PP's.

[Wario]

To see the turn with only 2 outs the pot would need to be very large. Do not try it in small pots.

Also you need to be able to recognise the situations when your low pair is likely to be the best hand.

[Carmine]

We all hate to see the set card fall on the turn after we dumped, but you know it was the right move to drop. Unless of course you became trapped PF and the pot is huge then I take one off, if I can do so CHEAPLY, otherwise I cut my losses and move on.

[KingOtter]

If I feel I have the best hand, depending on the action and the board, then I stay in the hand. For instance, if it checks around, or if I have second pair, or if a pair flops (and there isn't much action).

If I don't think I have the best hand then I don't try to hit 2 outs without pot odds. For instance if it is bet and raised, or 2-3 people have already called in front of me.

KO

[Sasnak]

Fish - 83/0/1.5 over 40 hands and has stayed in EVERY hand to the river he's been in. UTG1 is very tight and always has the nutz. I put him on AA/KK with his flop 3 bet. Hence the calls and no raising. I felt the Fish was dead money against me and UTG1.

This is the short version of my last week. Un-freakin'-believable! Bust my butt gaining a few bets here and there then...

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 <font color="#A500AF">(Fish)</font> calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Fish calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Fish calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Fish calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Fish raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG+1 has Ad Qc (one pair, aces).
Fish has 9h 9s (three of a kind, nines).
Hero has Ac Kh (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: Fish wins 17.25 BB. </font>

[DeathDonkey]

If this is how you normally play I'm not surprised you're losing. If this is you getting passive and weird because you're losing, you need to take some time off, drop to a lower limit, or whatever it takes to play your normal game.

3 bet preflop, cap the flop, raise the turn, who knows on the river.

-DeathDonkey

[jogger08152]

You should very seldom "see" the turn, if you mean calling a bet on the flop in hopes of improving to a set when your pocket pair doesn't figure to be best.

The odds of turning a set are 22.5 to 1 against. You would need in the neighborhood of 18 small bets in the pot to consider calling based on implied odds IF the flop was rainbow and your set card didn't figure to make someone's straight. In my last 220 hours of live play at the (very) loose 5-10 games in Cleveland, I've had what I considered adquate odds to draw to a set 4 times (and in the interests of honesty, I should confess that I've drawn to it 5 times - the "extra" one in a 22 or 24 bet pot with 2 flush cards on board, a fairly bad play that happened to win me a nice pot).

That said, when you're against a small number of players, the fact that you are overlaid doesn't necessarily mean your hand is beaten. Specifically, if you hold 99 and the flop comes Q-6-4 and you're up against two opponents, there is a good chance you're ahead - in this situation I'd lead into my opponents and possibly reraise a raiser, depending upon how LAGgy he is and what the chances are that he is on a straight or flush draw.

Also, you should sometimes be able to see the turn for free with an unimproved pair even when it clearly doesn't figure to be best - if, for example, you raised from late position preflop, and the other players check to you on the flop. In this case, you should almost always take the free card if you believe your hand is beaten, unless you believe you have a good chance of stealing the pot with a bet.

Finally, try not to feel too bad when your overpair gets cracked by someone drawing to a set in a small or medium-sized pot. In general, this is the type of player that makes your games profitable.

Hope this helps,
Jogger.

[Greg J]

Hey Sasnak,

"No set, no bet" is a little too simplistic. This is usually true for the tiny pps, but 66-99 can often win unimproved -- you just have to know how to play them.

You have 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif in ep with 4 other limpers.

Good flop: J/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

It's likely no one has a Jack, and you have a lone 4 beaten. If this flop you will often win unimproved. Be inclined to bet, and maybe raise here.

Bad flop: 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Notice before only a jack or a higher pair (or poker 4s) beat you, whereas now any Jack or 4 beats you.

[Greg J]

MUCH more aggression is needed in this hand. 3 bet preflop! Cap the flop! Raise the turn and call down a 3 bet.

Also, the fish that won this hand hit a 2 outer on the river. He made mistakes on all streets except the river.

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is how you normally play I'm not surprised you're losing. If this is you getting passive and weird because you're losing, you need to take some time off, drop to a lower limit, or whatever it takes to play your normal game.

3 bet preflop, cap the flop, raise the turn, who knows on the river.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't "normally" play AK this way DeathDonkey. But I will admit I should have 3-bet, capped and raised the whole way and knew I'd get a response like yours when I posted the hand. Seeing your hand in print third party form can be sobering as much as enlightening. All I can say is I need to throw off the panties and put the boxers back on. Thanks.

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
MUCH more aggression is needed in this hand. 3 bet preflop! Cap the flop! Raise the turn and call down a 3 bet.

Also, the fish that won this hand hit a 2 outer on the river. He made mistakes on all streets except the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I know. It's beginning to effect my thinking and playing. I'll toughen up and give it another 100BB's max to pull out or I'm dropping and regaining myself. Thanks.

[limit]

Is it just me or should I be seeing the turn with pocket pairs. My standard rule is, "no set, no bet" unless of course I am holding an overpair. AA-JJ aren't to be included, but say 44's thru 99's.

I have adopted the following stratagy with PP 22 through 99.
I call any position if there has not been a raise. I will call a raise if I already have money in. I have a strict no "set no bet policy" and always fold to a bet on the flop if I don't hit.
After 10000 hands I have a 0.14 BB/Hand for these pocket pairs.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a strict no "set no bet policy" and always fold to a bet on the flop if I don't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not a good idea. There are a lot of friendly flops for mid pps that dont make a set. If you abide strictly by this policy you are leaving bets on the table.

Let's say you are in MP, and have 2 other limpers in fron with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. You limp, folded to the Button who raises. One blind and all others call. The SB raises, BB folds, and you have 5 players. Flop is:

T/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif

Bet! There is a great chance you have the best hand.

[limit]

Would you consider this a +EV bet if there had not been a raise.
Also, are you saing that there was a raise by the button and a re-raise by SB?
This would put 7.5 BB in which I belive.

limit

[Greg J]

I totally misposted that. SB does not reraise. I really butchered that post sorry /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Would you consider this a +EV bet if there had not been a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes!

[BruinEric]

[ QUOTE ]

Let's say you are in MP, and have 2 other limpers in fron with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. You limp, folded to the Button who raises. One blind and all others call. The SB raises, BB folds, and you have 5 players. Flop is:

T/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif

Bet! There is a great chance you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you fold to a re-raise (assume re-raiser is any player type but raving aggro post-flop)? Or call a SB and check-fold unimproved on the turn? Or what?

Theoretical info as to _why_ is good too. I am working my way through SSHE and trying to grasp this stuff. If re-raised by any but a maniac, I'm putting him on a T.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
You should very seldom "see" the turn, if you mean calling a bet on the flop in hopes of improving to a set when your pocket pair doesn't figure to be best.

The odds of turning a set are 22.5 to 1 against. You would need in the neighborhood of 18 small bets in the pot to consider calling based on implied odds IF the flop was rainbow and your set card didn't figure to make someone's straight. In my last 220 hours of live play at the (very) loose 5-10 games in Cleveland, I've had what I considered adquate odds to draw to a set 4 times (and in the interests of honesty, I should confess that I've drawn to it 5 times - the "extra" one in a 22 or 24 bet pot with 2 flush cards on board, a fairly bad play that happened to win me a nice pot).

That said, when you're against a small number of players, the fact that you are overlaid doesn't necessarily mean your hand is beaten. Specifically, if you hold 99 and the flop comes Q-6-4 and you're up against two opponents, there is a good chance you're ahead - in this situation I'd lead into my opponents and possibly reraise a raiser, depending upon how LAGgy he is and what the chances are that he is on a straight or flush draw.

Also, you should sometimes be able to see the turn for free with an unimproved pair even when it clearly doesn't figure to be best - if, for example, you raised from late position preflop, and the other players check to you on the flop. In this case, you should almost always take the free card if you believe your hand is beaten, unless you believe you have a good chance of stealing the pot with a bet.

Finally, try not to feel too bad when your overpair gets cracked by someone drawing to a set in a small or medium-sized pot. In general, this is the type of player that makes your games profitable.

Hope this helps,
Jogger.

[/ QUOTE ]

first off you don't always need 18+sml bets in to see the turn, remember the bets double the next round so if the pot is 13sml bets, and its 1 to you closing the action, you really only need to make up 5bets on the turn and river, which may or may not be likely, there are way too many variables to this for a set in stone rule