Tight-Agressive Player finishes on bubble

[HitmanHoldem]

I posted this on the low limit forum as well but it might be more suited to post here.

Where I live we usually get together a game or so a week of anyhwere from $25-$50 buy in, more towards the $25 side though. It's a low stake game, and we usually have about 8-10 people.

I'm pretty confident that of the people I am the best player there, but as I write this post I guess I have to question that because of what I am about to ask. I, unlike most people there, value my starting hands. I'm a tight, but agressive player. When I'm in the pot, the majority of the time I can just steal the blinds because of the respect the players give me.

The problem I find myself in everytime is I'll hover a little above my starting chip count, usually up 50% or so while everyone else is playing wrecklessyly and doubling each other up on garbage. So we'll be down to the final 4, top 3 pay out and I'll be the low stack of the 4 people there. I find myself in this situation far too often where people have nice chip leads over me and use them to bully me around.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I should do so I can possibly get the chip lead early with the way I play? It just seems that with the way I play, I dont' lose money, I just win small pots which do add up, but not enough to contend later on. Each tournament there are a differnet 3-4 people who get lucky and double and triple up quick and have dominating stacks which are hard to penetrate into, espicially when the blinds go up.

My fundamentals of poker are solid. I know when it is mathematically right to make a call and I can read bluffs and bets on draws fairly well. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions on what I can do to fix my game so I don't find myself in these precarious situations.

[TenPercenter]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem I find myself in everytime is I'll hover a little above my starting chip count, usually up 50% or so while everyone else is playing wrecklessyly and doubling each other up on garbage. So we'll be down to the final 4, top 3 pay out and I'll be the low stack of the 4 people there. I find myself in this situation far too often where people have nice chip leads over me and use them to bully me around.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds about like me and one buddy of mine at our home games. The newbies double each other up all night, or worse yet, one guys gets so lucky that he has the majority of all the chips in play. I try to whittle him down, and usually do, but I am in the bubble 50% of the time and in the $$ the other 50%.

In other words, I have no answer, but I need the same advice.

Ten

[HitmanHoldem]

Yeah, same for me, I'll finish in the money a lot as well, probably even more than half the time, but I finished on the bubble last night, and the way I play, I never get those huge stacks, I just sit around even, a litte up most the night.

Last night I pushed UTG with AQ suited and was called by the big satck who had Q9 off and he caught.

Obviously there is nothing I can do about that, it's poker, but I want to get myself out of that situation where I don't have to worry about the blinds eating me away and I don't have to push UTG with a strong hand like that.

[Ghazban]

Post this in the multi-table or single-table tournament forums (or just look around in there for similar issues). There is no one right answer to your question because it depends on your opponents. If you get a lot of respect every time you raise, raise more often once the blinds are worth stealing. In loose tournaments, you will often need to get all-in before the flop multiple times to win (unless you can double/triple up early, your starting hand discretion will cause you to be somewhat short stacked). So long as you are doing this with the best of it, you're playing fine. If you are cashing half the time, you're probably doing better than anyone else there (as they gain and lose large amounts of chips often) in the long run. You cannot expect to make the money every single time no matter how much better you are than your opponents. The larger the blinds with respect to stack sizes, the less edge the good player has and variance will be higher.

[theWhale]

Play more hands when you are in position. Try calling on the button and then outplaying them after the flop. If they are too nuts you just cant do this, you have to wait for cards.

[kodonnell]

I host a very similiar tournament at my home. I am also tight-aggressive (usually). I found myself in the same position as you, finding myself short stacked at the end. Sometimes you just can't help it.

Basically, you need to look for good opportunities to steal pots. In home games, there are quite a few over the course of a tournament. Try playing the players and position more than playing the cards. It seems to work pretty well for me and can get me a pretty good chip stack going into the later rounds.

I found that I can steal some big pots where a lot of people are staying in for cheap on draws. When I can identify these I will typically stay in for cheap and see if any draws hit. If none of the draws hit, I will bet big on the river and steal some good pots this way.

If I get a chip lead, I will focus a little more on my cards, play a little bit tighter, letting the other players knock each other out.

You can also look online for "SNG strategies". The online sit-n-go tounaments play very much like home tournaments and the strategies can work in either venue.

As for my record, in the last 3 tounaments hosted by me (9-10 players) I have won twice (back-to-back), and come in third since using this strategy.

K-

[unloaded]

I've had same problems but there are some things to do that can really help. I would say the number one thing that would help is to get caught bluffing a few times. Pick your spots carefully, where you can do it for cheap. And where you know you will be called and have to show. Even if eveybody knows you are advertising for later value, you will still get action from them when you want it.
Another thing. When in late position and it's turning into a "family pot" with everybody limping in, i'll see a flop with just about anything.
One more, you say you play "tight but agressive". Maybe you are playing a bit too agressive when you have a hand? I usually make the same size bet pre flop, 3x blind if opening the pot and 4x if there are limpers before me. I say usually but not always. It makes it much harder for them to judge the actual strength of your hand. Also 3x blind will buy a lot more blinds than you think, specially if the blinds just went up.

Those three things really helped my game agaisnt the kind of player you mention. Give them a try and see how they work out for you.

peace.
unloaded

[Munga30]

It sounds like you are too rigid, playing "your game" for the entire tournament, usually to your own detriment.

If they're recklessly doubling each other up, they are offering tremendous implied odds. Widen your limping hands in late position in multiway pots. If the money is deep enough, you can cold-call with some trashier hands, looking to hit big and double up. If the game is passive enough, you can open up in mid position, too. They will usually remember that you called with something less than premium but not remember that you did it on the button against the three loosest players at the table. This gives the appearance of loose play without actually being all that loose.

Understand how you are supposed to adapt as the blinds increase. Eventually, most are playing with shallow stacks and looking to survive to a paying spot. Take advantage of this to recklessly (well, seemingly so) steal blinds. Also, when playing with shallow(er) money, understand what hands do well heads-up and shove all your money in. Between the equity of your hand and the folding equity your opponents frequently give you, there are more profitable spots to push in than you realize.

Read more of the STT forum and play SNGs for practice.

[FUpaymee]

I'm in the same situation in my usual home game (or any home game for that matter). I am usually in the top 3, but usually short stacked going into it. I'm tight-aggressive while everyone else is doubling each other up every other hand.

The other day, I decided to experiment and tighten up even more. It was a 10 person tournament, and in the first 2 hours I had only played 4 hands, but knocked 3 people out in the process. I knew it would be hard to bluff people out of pots, so I just waited til I had monster hands and suckered them into calling all-ins with marginal hands like top pair and 2 pair. It felt like a cheap way to win, but I would ONLY play this way against these players. I am normally not much of a slow-player and I usually like to get aggressive and pick up small pots when I sense weakness or have position, but these types of games are full of chasers and people who overvalue their hands. So I decided I wasn't going to be bluffing at pots early on and I was simply going to play the cards until I hit a big one. Then I would go all-in and would most likely get called because everyone overvalues their hands in this game.

Like I said, in the first 2 hours I played only 4 hands: 1) limped with AA from UTG...hit a set on the flop and slowplayed this guy into calling an all-in with 2 pair on the river; 2) K8s from the BB, flopped nut flush, slowplayed this guy into calling an all-in with top pair; 3) AQ, made a straight, won about 1500 in chips against another 2 pair; 4) JJ, went all-in before the flop in the BB, short stack called with JTs, knocked him out.

Once I built such a huge stack and we were down to the final 4, I was chip leader and I could start to loosen up a bit and go after more pots. I never was really challenged and won the tourney.

It felt funny since I really didn't play "my game", but I was glad I adjusted my game to the players in it and took home the prize. /images/graemlins/cool.gif