Raise to clear up overcard outs?

[pointcount]

Raise this flop?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>?

[Stork]

I don't like raising here for two reasons. Firstly, the somewhat coordinated nature of this board means that there may be some strong draws out against you, and it could very well be reraised, which wouldn't be thrilling. Also, you don't have any backdoor draws. You're playing solely to spike a pair, and your pair outs may not be clean. You may get AK to fold to a raise, but I doubt you will get a paired ace to fold on a board like this. I think you have enough overlay from the pot to try and get a cheap look at the turn, but I don't think you have enough equity to raise.

[pokerjunky]

I usually only count 2 overcards on a coordinated board like this for 3 outs since you could make top pair but still lose. I would fold this flop.

[Entity]

I think it's close between calling and folding. Raising is not an option for me on this flop.

Rob

[Shillx]

I don't mind folding at all. Give me the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and I'm calling. No way am I raising this hand.

Brad

[Vern]

The board is coordinated, giveing rise to many strong draws. Given that you have no backdoor draws and that BB has lead into you, there is a caller and a player left to act, I think folding is the better option here.

Vern

Standard Disclaimer, I am by no means an expert at any of this.

[3rdEye]

Isn't this one of those situations from SSH in which you'd fold overcards, given that your overcard draw is weak because of the highly coordinated nature of the flop and hero's lack of redraws?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this one of those situations from SSH in which you'd fold overcards, given that your overcard draw is weak because of the highly coordinated nature of the flop and hero's lack of redraws?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty damned close. I haven't read the SSH section on overcards recently, but the only possibility I could see here is that you're getting 12:1, so calling isn't terrible, I don't think. I wouldn't fault anyone for folding here and I'm beginning to think that it'd be best.

I think raising is the only obviously wrong play.

[Stork]

It may be weak, but you're getting 12-1 on a 6-1 shot, which is a rediculous overlay. It is a very close decision, but I think I would call.

[Entity]

pointcount,

Read this. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=1181716&amp;Forum =,All_Forums,&amp;Words=AJo&amp;Searchpage=1&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main =1178384&amp;Search=true&amp;where=sub&amp;Name=13485&amp;daterang e=1&amp;newerval=12&amp;newertype=w&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;b odyprev=#Post1181716)

With the difference in pot sizes, calling might be correct here. I don't know for sure.

Rob

[imaptone]

I dont think that I give myself credit for six outs in this situation, I even think that 4 may be too many. Ad and Jd are certainly iffy as are the aces with the possibility of being reverse dominated. I would say call if I was closing the action, but I think I fold this because there are players to act behind me and it becomes a tricky hand to play if I hit one of my outs.

[imaptone]

Rob,
So if you call and no one raises so you are 4 handed(this hand not your thread), what would be your approach on the turn if you hit your Ace check-call, bet-fold? Your jack?

[Shillx]

Bet if checked to. Raise if bet into. Fold to a 3-bet most likely.

Brad

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet if checked to. Raise if bet into. Fold to a 3-bet most likely.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, Shill's got it.

I'm coming closer and closer to just liking folding here. 12:1 doesn't seem quite enough to call a bet here.

Rob

[imaptone]

At least,in this hand the Jack seems cleaner than the other thread.

[Shillx]

I agree. If it is +EV it is just barely. It will just add to the Standard Deviation and create bigger swings. I'll give up a few penny's of EV to avoid the headache.

Brad

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
At least,in this hand the Jack seems cleaner than the other thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but the redraws are tough, as is the possibility that you're already up against two pair.

Rob

[GrunchCan]

I'm happily folding. This board is very dangeros to a TP draw. It's not a somewhat-coordinted board; it's a very-coordinated board. It could only be worse if the 4 were a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Raising will not clean up anything. It will not have the desired effect - to get your opponents to fold. In fact, it will tie UTG to the pot, no matter what crap he's playing. Raising is the worst thing you could do.

[Kenrick]

Two guys have already called. You have nothing.

[DeathDonkey]

I fold without a seond thought. Used to raise crap like this or at least call and its just not worth the trouble. Drawing dead, reverse domination, reverse implied odds, that's all you have going on with a flop like this.

-DeathDonkey