AJo facing 3-bet

[wuarhg]

Villain: 30% VPIP, 8% PFR, PF-AGG: 2.4

I had an odd feeling in this hand so I had to call down /images/graemlins/grin.gif. What would you have done? Checkfold the turn?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG posts a blind of $5.
UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, UTG (poster) folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.70 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.70 BB

[sublime]

What would you have done? Checkfold the turn?

played it just like you.

perfect

[Shillx]

Looks good until the river.

If he will bluff with AK everytime on the river, then this is fine. Against a more typical player, you should bet the river (hands like AK will call fearing a bluff but will check behind if you check to them). You aren't likely to get raised on the river b/c the chance that you are bluffing is so high.

Brad

[BottlesOf]

Bet the river.

[wuarhg]

My question now is.. How do you determine when to check-call down. I beat AK, AQ and 99 (if he 3-bets this which I would imagine he does) and maybe KQs. Do you compare how many ways he has me beat and how many ways I have him beat and go from there or is it "pure" feeling?

[sublime]

Bet the river.

yeah, i missed that. i was so focused on making sure hero didnt fold the turn /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[BottlesOf]

Hmmn. Well, I think it's a little of both. You try and put your opponents on a range of hands and make probabilistic decisions, but you don't want to get so narrowly confined that you refuse to acknowledge other possibilities.

The only reason I don't love a river bet is b/c of how aggressive he seems to be. That being said, I still vote bet for now.

[edtost]

classic check/call, check/call, bet hand.

[Shillx]

In hands where it is 3-bets before the flop and HU (and you are not the 3-bettor), checking and calling with top pair (or even an overpair) is usually the correct strategy.

The best line is check/call the flop, check/call the turn and bet the river.

Brad

[Shillx]

Yeah. Against a super aggressive player I will check the river as well and let him bluff with AK/AQ. Against most I agree that betting the river is best.

Brad

[wuarhg]

[ QUOTE ]
In hands where it is 3-bets before the flop and HU (and you are not the 3-bettor), checking and calling with top pair (or even an overpair) is usually the correct strategy.

The best line is check/call the flop, check/call the turn and bet the river.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, It ends up HU more often than not at 5/10 if you compare to 3/6 but it's nothing I wont adapt to.

Anyway, Villain showed K/images/graemlins/club.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif and a pretty note was made.

[Kenrick]

I don't know why I'd be raising with crap, but if I did, I'd be checkraising *either* the flop or the turn. However, my postflop would probably be similar if I hadn't raised a crap-ass AJo. Having raised it makes things different, though. If I raise (a crapass hand) preflop, I'm not letting the 3-bettor get away so easily. He better have AA-JJ or I'll mess him up.

[Carmine]

I am going to assume the reason everyone reccommends check/calling the flop and turn with TPTK is because of villians 3-bet PF. WE are either giving him credit for the two hands that beat us that he would 3-bet PF...QQ-KK (AA/TT are less likely holdings) or we are letting him bluff his chips to our side of the table. To put it another way. If we C/R the turn we are either going to get 3-bet or folded to. Neither of which is good.

We are betting out on the river in case he gives up on his we don't ant it getting checked through? Are we then calling a river raise? I suppose so.

[PokerBob]

Bet the flop.

[wuarhg]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why I'd be raising with crap, but if I did, I'd be checkraising *either* the flop or the turn. However, my postflop would probably be similar if I hadn't raised a crap-ass AJo. Having raised it makes things different, though. If I raise (a crapass hand) preflop, I'm not letting the 3-bettor get away so easily. He better have AA-JJ or I'll mess him up.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you muck AJo here or openlimp? From my perspective raising is the best choice.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

crapass isn't a real word.

[sfer]

One, you're not raising with crap. Two, checkraising is a terrible plan. Three, wrong wrong wrong.

[Hermlord]

The check/call, check/call, bet line is one I don't understand too well in general. Don't you want to see a showdown cheap here? I understand you don't want it checked through if you're ahead but what if he raises? You have to fold, right?

If you're ahead and it's checked through on the river you lose one bet. But if you're behind, bet out and call a raise you lose two. If you bet and are called you probably win one bet, if you bet and fold to a raise you lose one. So the central assumption of this line is that a raise means you're beat &gt;95% of the time?

I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm trying to find out if my reasoning is right. It's a line I don't take very often so I want to know when I should.

[TommyO]

I don't understand why a river bet is the best option. There a lot of hands that beat you and I don't see the villian calling with a worse hand. You really think he is going to call a river bet with AK? This seems like one of those hands where if he calls you're beat but you're probably going to get raised or he'll fold.

[Bob T.]

It's opponent dependent.

If he bets, you are going to call one bet on the river. Let's assume that he is going to bet all of the hands that beat you, in this case, full houses and overpairs.

But he is going to check behind with hands like underpairs and unimproved aces that he might call with.

So if you check/call on the river, you will lose all of the times that he would bet, and collect nothing in the situations when you are ahead.

If you bet, and your opponent calls, you still lose the same times, but you win more when you are ahead. So even if you lose this bet most of the time, you are making money by losing less money. ( It is called the 'F#$%, Im out of position and am going to call, value bet', and I believe Ed covered it in one of the later chapters in his book)

If your hand is such, that you have to call a raise after you bet, or your opponent is likely to be on a bluff, and is likely to continue his bluff on the river, then a check/call might be better.

In this case, with your opponent threebetting preflop, he likely has some values, so he is likely to call your bet if he is behind (because that is probably correct play) and if he has enough to raise you on the river, you probably don't need to call him.

[Bob T.]

Anyway, Villain showed KQ and a pretty note was made.

See my response above, this is the kind of opponent you want to check/call the river on, as opposed to bet the river.

But against an unknown, this is a check/call, check/call, bet hand.

[Bob T.]

See my response to TommyO in this thread.

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why I'd be raising with crap, but if I did, I'd be checkraising *either* the flop or the turn. However, my postflop would probably be similar if I hadn't raised a crap-ass AJo. Having raised it makes things different, though. If I raise (a crapass hand) preflop, I'm not letting the 3-bettor get away so easily. He better have AA-JJ or I'll mess him up.

[/ QUOTE ]

1st in w/AJ in middle position is a clear raise. note: just because you sometimes get beat with this hand does not make it a "crapass hand". in fact, if you have pokertracker and enough hands in your database, you should show AJoffsuit as one of your profitable hands. if not, you are not playing it correctly.

cheers!

[tripdad]

i completely agree with your response to TommyO above, and was quite surprised to see so many advocating betting out here. clearly, the key is the agressive nature of the opponent. in fact, the entire hand would have played out differently against the typical player...so much so, that this discussion would never be taking place.

cheers!

[Sarge85]

Bob.

EXCELLENT explanation.

Inserting Post into Favorites.

Thanks

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[TommyO]

"So if you check/call on the river, you will lose all of the times that he would bet, and collect nothing in the situations when you are ahead. "

This is assuming he never bluffs. A lot of people will bluff with AK in this situation IMO.

"If you bet, and your opponent calls, you still lose the same times, but you win more when you are ahead. So even if you lose this bet most of the time, you are making money by losing less money. ( It is called the 'F#$%, Im out of position and am going to call, value bet', and I believe Ed covered it in one of the later chapters in his book)"

The problem I have with this line is that you pretty much have to fold to a raise. I'd rather take my chances on picking off a bluff than folding to a bluff raise.