2nd hand, QQ

[Womble]

Was this too risky 2nd hand in the tourny? (10/20 blinds)

Hero is MP2 with Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Hero raises to 80 (is this a good size?), MP3 folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls

Flop 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif (340)
SB bets 100, Hero raises to 200, SB calls

Turn 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (740)
SB checks, Hero bets 300, SB calls

River T /images/graemlins/heart.gif (1340)
SB checks, Hero bets 420 (all in), SB calls

Was this too agressive so early on, SB showed no agression apart from the flop so was guessing top pair. Can you also comment on my betting, am new to NL and tournies so not sure

[willperkins]

Preflop:

Nothing wrong with your raise (3 X BB + the limper)

Flop:

What do you put SB on? When he called your preflop raise he was only getting 1.86 to 1 pot odds. This means he is not a very good player or he has a great hand. I rule out the great hand, because he should have reraised.

He bets t100. I have to put him on 99,55,22 or a flush draw. You only raised another t100, That means he is getting 6 to 1 pot odds to call. That is plenty for a flush draw. I would have raised bout t350. Now, if he is on a flush draw he is getting incorrect odds to draw. If he has trips, he should come over the top of you.

Turn:
SB checks, Since there is t740 in the pot, I will bet about t500. If he wants to call on a flush draw, I want him to call with incorrect odds. Once again, if he has trips, he should reraise.

River:
SB checks. Either he got very lucky and has a monster hand with 99 or 55 and has been slowplaying or he has a busted flush draw.

Just like you, I too would have pushed. If he has the monster, so be it.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
SB checks. Either he got very lucky and has a monster hand with 99 or 55 and has been slowplaying or he has a busted flush draw.

Just like you, I too would have pushed

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[willperkins]

If you mean why do I think he would check:
Sorry, if I was not very clear.
I think he has a busted flush draw. I would think he would bet the river if he has quads or a boat.

[adanthar]

No. Given what you put him on, why are you pushing?

[willperkins]

Good point. Let me back up and rethink this. Since I put him on a busted flush draw and he checked, I want to bet an amount that he would might call. I would probably bet about t200.

[adanthar]

Think he calls 1/2 his (your) remaining stack with A high?

OK, maybe. But how often will he fold and how often (again, given what you put him on) will you be CR'd all in?

This hand is not difficult but you're approaching it the wrong way. Start from the flop again.

[willperkins]

OK. How about this senario.

Preflop:

SB calls with the raise with JJ.

Flop:

He has top pair and leads at the pot only to get reraised, but he calls anyway (maybe he thinks raiser has AK).

Turn:

Litte card pairs the board, so he check calls.

River:

He still has top pair so he calls again.


Help me, what am I missing here?

[adanthar]

It's pretty simple. In your original post, you put the SB on 99, 55, 22 or a flush draw. What flush draw? Well, you didn't say, but I assume 'Ax, QJ-87s, some one gappers' are all in your head, right?

Exactly because of this, in a low buyin SNG here's what *I* put the SB on when he leads the flop: JJ-22 (any of them), AK, A9, A5, A2, K9, K5, K2 (sooted), 9x where x is sooted and a 2 gapper or less, and a flush draw that may or may not have any of those.

Now start from the flop with this in mind. Your raise to t350 is pretty good but your reason for it is probably wrong. Why?

[the_joker]

I think the pre-flop raise of 80 is good - you want to fold A-junk and K-junk that many people seem to like to limp with (at least at lower limits). I'd say the person had KK and was worried you had AA - not willing to initiate all-in, but willing to call you down. I'm a beginner as well, so feel free to disregard this comment /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[IvyGrizzly]

I might raise a little larger PF. The bet on the flop and turn seem alright (I would be a little scared on the turn after he called), but when he keeps checking and calling very large bets I would definitely check on the river.

[texasrattlers]

[ QUOTE ]
Now start from the flop with this in mind. Your raise to t350 is pretty good but your reason for it is probably wrong. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the correct reason "because they like to call"?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now start from the flop with this in mind. Your raise to t350 is pretty good but your reason for it is probably wrong. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the correct reason "because they like to call"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

Now, let's say he calls that and checks to you on the turn. The pot's 900 and you've 600 behind; it's a clear all in.

But if you both had 1500 behind to start the hand, you'd have more wiggle room. In that case, against an ABC, TAG player the answer would be an on the fly calculation - how often you're drawing dead, how often you will stay ahead when ahead right now, and how often you would induce a bluff on a blank river if you check behind. This is far more important because an ABC player certainly doesn't play a flush draw like this (unless maybe it's AK /images/graemlins/club.gif )- he's either going to try a resteal, has something like JJ-66 or you are in deep trouble.

Against a fish, ignore everything I just said and bet the most you think he'll call. (Admission time: I'm still working on those *river* value bets...but I'd bet about 600 on the turn and decide about a CR when I got there.)

[Womble]

He had J9o. I didnt think there would be a set out there and the small bet was top pair. I am unhappy about my flop bet, after reading posts the standard seems to be around the size of the pot so about 300-400 would have been better.

If he continued and checked the turn, I probably would have gone all in with the safe card. I have noticed at 2+0.5 many people play junk for small amounts so wasnt worried about KK,AA which were the possible better hands