general 2/4 precept?

[dfscott]

During my 2/4 struggles, I've been re-reading most of my poker library. I ran into the following gem in TOP that I think might be a part of my problem. I thought I'd share it to see if others agreed or not.

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...it may be correct to raise with what is possibly the second-best hand if your raise will drive third-, fourth-, and fifth-best hands out -- usually straight and/or flush draws. However, if you know those players are not going to get out when you raise, all of a sudden your hand might not be worth even a call. Not only is there a good chance that you're already beat by the bettor, but frequently you'll get caught from behind by one of the drawing hands. When you cannot get the drawing hands out by raising, you have so many ways of losing that your best alternative is to fold.

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This sounds like it would often apply to 2/4, where people seem to chase everything. Thoughts?

[Nick C]

I suspect the passage applies even more to stud, where the hands are independent, but, yeah, I do think there's some application to 2/4. If improving to two pair to overtake someone else's hand who was in the lead will make a third player's gutshot, then folding might be better than raising, if the raise won't get the gutshot out.

As for the flush draws, though, it's fairly rare in hold 'em when a flush draw will (or even should) fold.

But, anyway, I think we do need to consider the ways we could lose or go on to lose even if we do improve when we're making our flop and turn decisions. And the more multiway the pot is, the less likely it is that hands like top pair (if we're thinking of calling or raising with overcards) and two pair will be good enough.

[MisterNatural]

I've just started making the transition from 1/2 6 max to 2/4 full and I lost a lot the first day playing overly aggressive. It seems that in a tight passive room the aggressive style works great, but in an uber aggressive room where there are usually 3+ players showing down, playing more passive (i.e. peddling the nuts) works better. Finding the style to fit the room and your table image seems more important at 2/4. The more people showing down, the better your hand has to be. The "3-bet with midpair top kicker" play goes down in value if you're regularly getting called or capped on the flop. It's more like "3-bet top pair top kicker" is the play to look for. HPFAP also addresses not betting to drive others out when your raises don't get any respect.

[mack848]

Hmmm. I think I need to take this on board.

I've noticed that many of the big winners in my 2/4 database are very tight preflop (13-15%) and ultra agressive post flop (af 3-5).

I assume that they are only going past the flop if it hits them big, or a premium draw. Maybe there are enough loose callers to make this a good strategy - despite it being fairly obvious to an observant opponent.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
I've noticed that many of the big winners in my 2/4 database are very tight preflop (13-15%) and ultra agressive post flop (af 3-5).

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Not always true, though. My preflop stats are sexy like that, and I'm breaking even.

[mack848]

Are you purposely this tight preflop, or would you prefer it a little higher? I often read advise here suggesting 16-19% as 'sexy'!
I'd love to be more aggressive post flop, but it maybe that my playing of marginal made hands and draws entails more calling than this ultra-tight style requires.

It might be that my idea of 13-15% being ultra-tight is wrong. I think that i'm going to tighten up until my post flop play is good enough for 2/4. I'm 19%.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you purposely this tight preflop, or would you prefer it a little higher? I often read advise here suggesting 16-19% as 'sexy'!
I'd love to be more aggressive post flop, but it maybe that my playing of marginal made hands and draws entails more calling than this ultra-tight style requires.

It might be that my idea of 13-15% being ultra-tight is wrong. I think that i'm going to tighten up until my post flop play is good enough for 2/4. I'm 19%.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to think I'm a sexy player running bad. I play all the hands I'm supposed to, I think.

[twankerr]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume that they are only going past the flop if it hits them big, or a premium draw.

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On average, playing tight means that if you hit the flop you hit the flop hard with somehting like TPGK. The people are small stakes that are the largest winners make sure they put money in when they have the best of it, regardless of how good the hand really is. If that means raising with middle pair and no kicker against a player who frequently will open with nothing more than a draw, then thats what it means.