View Full Version : Feeling clueless as usual
Have never played with villain before.
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>.
Flop: (5.40 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.
Turn: (3.70 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.
River: (5.70 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 7.70 BB
This is a really common situation for me. My default play would be to check-fold the river.
EDIT: Occasionally I'll bet. Check-calling is 3rd place for me. I'd be really interested to hear any arguments supporting this line tough since I don't particularly enjoy playing it the way I do.
James282
01-02-2005, 03:09 PM
I think check-calling the river is 1st, check-folding is second, and betting is third.
-James
Danenania
01-02-2005, 03:10 PM
That's how I play it. Against players who can bluff raise the turn I might check/call, check/call the turn and river.
Avatar
01-02-2005, 03:11 PM
Tough situation here.
I think on this particular board and hand, the check/call is 1st in my books.
Avatar
01-02-2005, 03:12 PM
I see no value in betting this river Evan.
DaShark
01-02-2005, 03:20 PM
I like it. Maybe that's because I'd play the hand the same way /images/graemlins/grin.gif. I'm a fan of the check and call on the river.
You earn a bet from a bluff. You'd have heard from a king on the flop or an 8 on the turn most likely. He might be making a slim value bet here but I think you stand to profit from this play.
Checking and folding on the river is an option but a mistake that costs you the pot is a lot worse than a mistake that costs you a bet, right?
Betting the river is the worst of the three options here. He's rarely, if ever, going to call with a hand that Tosh is beating
River2Pair
01-02-2005, 03:36 PM
I think most players will bet a busted flush draw often enough to make this a good play.
Then again, it could be a mid-pocket pair too.
I like seeing the showdown for one or zero bets here.
W. Deranged
01-02-2005, 03:48 PM
Flop: Heads-up this is unquestionably a bet.
Turn: Still an easy bet, because it's somewhat less likely that villain has an 8 in his hand because the pot was raised pre-flop (though you can't count anything out on Party), and so if you were ahead on the flop you're still ahead. And I think you can fold to a raise pretty safely unless you have a strong, strong reason to read villain as a creative and tricky player. (A bluff-raise on the turn by villain would be a sick play... remind me to make it some time...)
River: I think you can make a pretty good argument for either betting out or check-calling, but I think that check-folding is really wrong. I'll actually make an argument for betting out, because:
1. There is a remote possibility that you might get a smaller pocket pair to fold if you keep up constant pressure. (I played a similar hand the other day where I had A high on a two paired board and a higher pocket pair folded on the river... it'll happen occassionally and its a huge coup if you can do it.)
2. You might get another A high to fold, earning yourself half the pot.
3. It strikes me as very unlikely that you are going to get raised on the river here, because I don't think an 8 is hanging around and villain probably doesn't have a 3. He would have to be very tricky to wait until the river to raise a king or something like JJ or QQ (though that would also be a pretty cool play... Sklansky advocates playing those big pairs with one overcard like that in HPFAP).
My feeling is that the value of getting a pocket pair or another A to drop out will be greater than the value of snapping off a bluff with A high here, but I think it will be really, really close.
Noone check-folds the turn here ?
BottlesOf
01-02-2005, 04:22 PM
Ennh, sometimes. Not often. Seems weak.
Avatar
01-02-2005, 04:23 PM
Not a chance. Thats a great turn card.
Would the general consensus be that check calling is the best of a bad bunch of options?
I think that he will have a pair often after calling the flop. He also may not bet when he dont if you check, so you arenīt giving it away everytime you are ahead when you do so.
When you bet, you pretty much commit yourself to call the river, which easily can be a mistake, but you pretty much do anyway, since he is unknown and odds are reasonable.
I just donīt see why you canīt check the turn here, assuming that you also check, intending to raise sometimes.
Pot is pretty small.
Btw, sometimes he raise the turn and the bet is wasted, ahead or not.
Lmn55d
01-02-2005, 06:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think that he will have a pair often after calling the flop.
[/ QUOTE ]
In the games I play on party (3/6 and 5/10 6max), this is not the case and is why you shouldn't check/fold against a typical player.
Its amazing what you'll get called with on the flop by a lot of these guys. I fancy myself to have the best hand on the turn more than half the time; especially with that turn card.
shrug, I thought people were tightish in 5/10 full.
If what you say is true, then there isnīt really much question to this hand.
Hmm not just 5/10, I just seem to see crazily loose calls all over the place, I kind of expect anyone unknown to be loose. TAGs are around more, they play more tables, its far more likely I have notes on a TAG already.
sthief09
01-02-2005, 11:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Would the general consensus be that check calling is the best of a bad bunch of options?
[/ QUOTE ]
it's a paired, ragged board. I HATE the K there, and if it was instead a smaller card, I'd have an easier time calling. still, I don't mind calling here.
RiverTheNuts
01-02-2005, 11:17 PM
I either check/fold or check/raise the turn here...
private joker
01-03-2005, 12:17 AM
Never before has a poster gone from having such an awesome avatar to having such an annoying one as Tosh. The "let's pick a new and hideous avatar" disease is spreading. I'm glad I didn't change mine yet; it needs to be seriously considered.
Back to your regularly scheduled strategy to which I shrug at this hand.
bisonbison
01-03-2005, 12:31 AM
it's not tosh's choice. He lost our december challenge.
He's lucky he faced off against someone who doesn't make rape jokes or gay jokes or blah blah blah...
private joker
01-03-2005, 12:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
it's not tosh's choice. He lost our december challenge.
He's lucky he faced off against someone who doesn't make rape jokes or gay jokes or blah blah blah...
[/ QUOTE ]
Dare I ask for more details about this challenge? Or is it better left ignored and unexplained...
joker122
01-03-2005, 12:49 AM
i'm sure you're familiar with cnfuzzed's hand challenge in which 2 posters try to play more hands in a given month than eachother. but you may not be familiar that the incentive to play the most hands is the winner's choice of avatar for the loser.
[ QUOTE ]
Dare I ask for more details about this challenge? Or is it better left ignored and unexplained...
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah bisonbison played more hands in December, therefore he chooses my avatar. Its only there till the end of the month, unless I lose again.
ok i am a nl player, very new to this limit thing. here are my thoughts, can someone tell me if im thinking about this incorrectly?
flop: easy bet
turn: i put him mostly on either a draw or a pocket pair below 10s. so i like the turn bet alot, as your hand is likely good here and you may even fold out some small pockets.
river: this is where i am confused. without a read, my tendancy would probably be to check call the river. you induce a bluff that way (small chance), and its less likely that you can value bet a non pair hand bc a king is on the borad
thoughts?
private joker
01-03-2005, 02:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah bisonbison played more hands in December, therefore he chooses my avatar. Its only there till the end of the month, unless I lose again.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then for all of our sake, stop reading this post and start logging hands! I'll bring you the coffee if need be. Just don't lose this month. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Kenrick
01-03-2005, 06:00 AM
Seems typical except I don't think I can call that river bet with Ace-high. Please change your avatar. It's spooky.
[ QUOTE ]
Then for all of our sake, stop reading this post and start logging hands! I'll bring you the coffee if need be. Just don't lose this month. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
He beat me by nearly 15k hands, do you think challenging him to a rematch was a tad foolish?
Rico Suave
01-03-2005, 10:37 AM
Tosh:
Yes, your avatar is annoying, but....Thatcher Rules!
--Rico
[ QUOTE ]
flop: easy bet
turn: i put him mostly on either a draw or a pocket pair below 10s. so i like the turn bet alot, as your hand is likely good here and you may even fold out some small pockets.
river: this is where i am confused. without a read, my tendancy would probably be to check call the river. you induce a bluff that way (small chance), and its less likely that you can value bet a non pair hand bc a king is on the borad
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah would say your thoughts are fine, except that you will rarely fold out small pockets.
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.