Ginormous pots with KK [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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asdf1234

01-02-2005, 05:26 AM

Button is complete maniac, something like 93/52. SB is loose, medium aggressive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button 3-bets, SB calls, BB calls, Hero caps, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (20 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, Button raises, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (22.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 22.50 BB

This is the same table, wacko is now CO, and medium LAG is button.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero raises, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO 3-bets, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG caps, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO folds, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (19.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 21.75 BB

Anybody do anything differently?

Cardzy

01-02-2005, 06:01 AM

I think I would play both the same as you did.

goofball

01-02-2005, 06:36 AM

"button is a complete maniac"

in hand one 3bet the turn

Rudbaeck

01-02-2005, 06:51 AM

1) 3-bet the turn.

2) Looks fine.

kurosh

01-02-2005, 06:53 AM

Why no raising the flop on the second hand? Flush draw + straight draw + overs could be coming...

Rudbaeck

01-02-2005, 07:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why no raising the flop on the second hand? Flush draw + straight draw + overs could be coming...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why we wait to the turn. Hero can't protect his hand on the flop, all the hands you listed will be correct to call hero's flop raise, and then hero can't defend on the turn either.

kurosh

01-02-2005, 07:03 AM

So what do you do if a T, /images/graemlins/club.gif or A rolls off?

Rudbaeck

01-02-2005, 07:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So what do you do if a T, /images/graemlins/club.gif or A rolls off?

[/ QUOTE ]

Be glad I didn't toss in more money for the winner? No one who benefits from those cards would fold the flop for 2 bets. (Heck, raising the flop benefits many likely holdings more than it does hero.)

Cardzy

01-02-2005, 07:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why no raising the flop on the second hand? Flush draw + straight draw + overs could be coming...

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of the size of the pot he is unable to protect his hand. A gut shot has 10.5:1 odds if I remember correctly. There is 18.5 bets in the pot when it gets to hero. If he raises it is obvious that UTG will call. That is 3 more bets bringing the pot to 21.5 bets giving the callers behind him 10.75:1 actual pot odds. So even a gut shot has odds to call.

By waiting for the turn to raise he can better protect his hand.

kurosh

01-02-2005, 07:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So what do you do if a T, /images/graemlins/club.gif or A rolls off?

[/ QUOTE ]

Be glad I didn't toss in more money for the winner? No one who benefits from those cards would fold the flop for 2 bets. (Heck, raising the flop benefits many likely holdings more than it does hero.)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's an auto-fold for all of those? That seems a bit weak to me... What about a Q?

Rudbaeck

01-02-2005, 07:36 AM

Uh, no, two of the scare cards give us a redraw, and unless people go wild on the river we'll have to make a crying call.

But raising the flop accomplishes nothing.

Cardzy

01-02-2005, 07:54 AM

Nobody said it was an auto-fold. I just went through this argument myself the other day and learned a lot from it. Check out this 4 page post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=1458999&fpart =&PHPSESSID=) where I had the same view as you.

James282

01-02-2005, 02:34 PM

Three-bet the turn in hand 1, for sure.
-James

asdf1234

01-02-2005, 04:06 PM

My hand is good both times. I definitely agree that the first one is an easy turn 3-bet. In the first hand, Nutjob had A/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif for a turned flush draw, MP3 had JJ, SB had JT and BB had Qx.

UTG had Qx in the second one.

River2Pair

01-02-2005, 04:16 PM

both are decent pots, but neither one is ginormous.

asdf1234

01-02-2005, 04:20 PM

Then again, ginormous isn't a word either.

Edit: well maybe it kind of is. It appears in various online dictionaries, although none provide strict BB guidelines for determining whether or not a pot is "ginormous."