52s from SB...for those of you sick of KK, QQ hands [Archive]

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Harv72b

01-01-2005, 10:59 PM

Reads: UTG is LA-A (but not overly aggressive postflop), MP3 is your typical LP-P. CO is TP-P. BB I don't have a firm read on, but he's seemed a little loose & a little weak.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 4 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB

I guess the big issue is the flop. I was getting 6:1 odds to call 1 SB on basically 6 outs (including the backdoor), and not expecting a call from the BB behind me. I knew even at the time that I should've folded, but I decided to take one off & see what happened...I also wasn't completely sure that UTG would require top pair (or even a made hand) to bet there.

BottlesOf

01-01-2005, 11:21 PM

Yea, flop's a little thin, but I think it's ok.

Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)

01-01-2005, 11:45 PM

Looks fine on all streets. Nice hand.

Gatts

01-01-2005, 11:57 PM

bee-yoo-ti-ful river c/r. nobody expects the runner runner flush.

W. Deranged

01-02-2005, 12:15 AM

I'm glad you posted this kind of hand, because I think that taking too many cards off on the flop is a big hole in my game. I've been thinking a lot about what kinds of situations merit taking off that card.

I think the flop call is too thin. There are obviously cases where you need to take a card off with bottom pair, but there are too many things working against you here:

1. The flop has two big cards and two spades. So, it is more likely you are going to be up against two pair or that some of your outs are killed. You gave yourself credit for 6 outs, but I think you need to discount your pair outs much more than that. Your read on UTG makes this call a little better, because it slightly increases your chances of being ahead, but with both a K and J on board, I think it is much more likely UTG has some kind of pair, and even if he doesn't, you are likely to be outdrawn.

2. The pot isn't big enough to go on. 6 to 1 is pretty small for this kind of play. I would generally restrict this play (taking a card off with bottom pair) to situations where you are getting at least 7 or probably 8 to 1, and where you can count on some kind of implied odds (though UTG is laggy, you can't count on too much out of position).

So I'd fold the flop. Rest is fine, and the river check-raise is very nice.

Harv72b

01-02-2005, 03:04 AM

8:1 is generally what I look for in a situation like this.

That's a good point about the two high cards possibly limiting my outs, but the other way of looking at is that this is a draw-heavy flop, and UTG is aggressive enough to bet a draw. Most times I'm up against a paired K or at least J, true, but...

I dunno...I think I also neglected to note that one of my "outs" (5/images/graemlins/spade.gif) would have completed the flush draw. Ah well, you live, you learn. /images/graemlins/smile.gif