A thought for newbies.

[Fitz]

I've been a winning online player for the last couple of years. I've logged over 500,000 hands online, and I just finished my best winning year. As we all should I'm constantly thinking about and analying my game. Something came to me yesterday that I thought I'd share. It could be beneficial to everyone, but I thought it would be especially helpful for newer players.

One of the problems many of us have is playing too many hand preflop. When this is combined with misplaying some of these hands, we create a huge hole we must dig ourselves out of to win. Sometimes it is done because we don't know any better; sometimes it is because we get bored and impatient, and sometimes it is because we start to think we are better players than we actually are. Whatever the reason, we can't win consistently if we are making bad decisions preflop.

It was well illustrated for me in an online $30 MTT yesterday. I had played well and hit a couple of hands early and had built my stack to about T4000. I then misplayed 3 hands in about an hour and I was out. My first mistake came with A9s UTG. The table had been tight, so I raised hoping to pick up the blinds(I was feeling strong at the moment). I get a call from late position. The flop comes 4 9 8 rainbow. In the end, I lose over T1000 when I put the caller all in with my top pair top kicker only to be shown pocket jacks. A little later, I limp in mid position with KTs; the flop comes J T 7 I lose half my stack this time to a slow played AJ. Finally, I was short stacked when I get KQo in late position. The blinds are 100/200 and there are 5 limpers to me. Instead of rasing all in as I should, due to my short stack, I decided to call and see the flop. The flop comes a beautiful Kh Qh 7d; I push on the flop the button calls and an EP calls. A third heart falls on the river and I lose to a A4h from the EP. The button had KQo as well. An all in raise from me preflop probably knocks them both out. I was reluctant to risk my tournament life on KQ with a dwindling chip stack.

I know I played all three of these hand terribly; I was distracted and probably shouldn't have been playing anyway. The idea of my post was the fact that in all three hands, I hit my hand and lost in the first two because I was playing crappy cards that should have been bullet folded into the muck. In the third I lost because I misplayed the hand because I'd leaked away so many chips in the previous two hands.

What is it that costs us the most in poker? Second best hands. Those hands that you pay off with all the way to the river when you are behind. The next time you are tempted to limp in with junk or get cute with a sub par hand, think about how much it costs to hit your hand and still lose.

Good luck all,

Fitz

[AKQJ10]

Also, it bears note that some of the hands that are hard for us beginners to understand why not to play, like KQo against a raise or KJo in early position, are -EV, not because they won't win a lot of pots, but precisely because they have such a great potential for 2nd-best hands.

[smoore]

Good post, Fitz. I just lost about 40BB tonight through a combination of bad luck and second best hands. It's probably exactly what I needed to read.

[jackaaron]

Thanks for the post. I'm very new, but I've noticed that if people don't get hands for a while, they "try to make something happen." Mostly, you get burned with this because you get, let's say, A7 suited, and you're in late position, and while it's not cheap to get in, you know you're wasting money to see the flop but you're "hoping" to get something on the flop. Then, nothing comes, and some people go even further with it. When you realize you're trying to "get lucky" odds are that you won't. I've realized early on that you really have to have a LOT of patience!

[SheridanCat]

Let's look at these hands a little closer.

[ QUOTE ]
I had played well and hit a couple of hands early and had built my stack to about T4000. I then misplayed 3 hands in about an hour and I was out. My first mistake came with A9s UTG. The table had been tight, so I raised hoping to pick up the blinds(I was feeling strong at the moment). I get a call from late position. The flop comes 4 9 8 rainbow. In the end, I lose over T1000 when I put the caller all in with my top pair top kicker only to be shown pocket jacks.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to try to play this, I don't think you can play it any differently. Yes, okay, a UTG blind steal was probably a bad idea. However, if the table is very tight, it's not impossible that it will work. If you come in for a raise UTG, the other players who are paying attention may give you a little respect.

So, in this case you hit TPTK. The other player only called preflop, so you don't have to put him on much. You end up losing to an overpair with TPTK. That's just bad luck. There was no way you were going to get away from the hand, right? Unless you came out with a bet post flop and he came back over the top with a hefty raise, you have to believe you're ahead. Even against JJ, you should have good outs. Sometimes you just lose.

[ QUOTE ]
A little later, I limp in mid position with KTs; the flop comes J T 7 I lose half my stack this time to a slow played AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can see the flop with KTs for a limp, you should do so. Unfortunately, you overplayed it postflop. You don't give the details of the hand, but you should have laid it down to any serious action. I repeat, however, that there is nothing wrong with seeing the flop cheaply.

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, I was short stacked when I get KQo in late position. The blinds are 100/200 and there are 5 limpers to me. Instead of rasing all in as I should, due to my short stack, I decided to call and see the flop. The flop comes a beautiful Kh Qh 7d; I push on the flop the button calls and an EP calls. A third heart falls on the river and I lose to a A4h from the EP. The button had KQo as well. An all in raise from me preflop probably knocks them both out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want all those players in for situations just like this. You got a cheap look at a flop with a lot of players in. You flopped a great hand. You want people around with their open-enders or four flushes. Those are the people who will triple you up, or better.

[ QUOTE ]
I was reluctant to risk my tournament life on KQ with a dwindling chip stack.

I know I played all three of these hand terribly


[/ QUOTE ]

You mostly got unlucky, with the exception of the KTs hand which sounds like you overplayed it - though it's impossible to tell based on the details of the hands you posted.

You're correct, of course, that second-best hands are painful and really eat at the bankroll sometimes. But if you start fearing that your TPTK is behind to an overpair when you opponent has shown no strength, you'll start playing badly.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Sometimes you just lose.

Regards,

T

[groo]

great post sheridan

[mcteecho]

I disagree - he shouldn't have played the first two hands at all. Axs in ep, and KTs in mp shouldn't be played in a tourny, especially with a healthy but not enormous stack. And if you have to play KQ because you're shortstacked, it's all or nothing - you'll have to get all your chips in eventually, and if the remainder after limping doesn't have fold equity so that a stop n' go won't work, you might as well get them all in pre-flop. These aren't just examples of bad luck - he shouldn't have placed himself in situations in which he could be unlucky. I think the original message is very, very important.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree - he shouldn't have played the first two hands at all. Axs in ep, and KTs in mp shouldn't be played in a tourny, especially with a healthy but not enormous stack.


[/ QUOTE ]

The A9x hand was ill-advised, for sure. It should have been in the muck. But are you telling me that after flopping TPTK, you start looking for overpairs from the lone opponent who showed no strength preflop? We don't know the rest of the action, but I don't see how you lay this down based on the information we have.

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with seeing the flop with KTs if you can limp in. If you can't get away from second pair, as in the OP's situation, then you shouldn't see the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
And if you have to play KQ because you're shortstacked, it's all or nothing - you'll have to get all your chips in eventually, and if the remainder after limping doesn't have fold equity so that a stop n' go won't work, you might as well get them all in pre-flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, if I felt I had to play KQo here, I'd push it all-in too. We don't know the opposing stacks or table texture, so there's no way to know what we expect to happen on an all-in raise. I'll agree here.

[ QUOTE ]
These aren't just examples of bad luck - he shouldn't have placed himself in situations in which he could be unlucky. I think the original message is very, very important.

[/ QUOTE ]

As poker players we put ourselves in these positions all the time. Hopefully we get a little lucky or we use our observations and knowledge to wiggle out of them. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't.

I don't deny the importance of the OP's original message, but if we play worried about being second best when we have no reason to believe we are or when we are, in fact, ahead then we will lose even more.

Interestingly, the two hands I think he should have folded preflop are the two hands where I think he played them fine post flop - those would be the A9s and the KQo hands.

Regards,

T

[mcteecho]

Good points, Sheridan. My point about the Axs (like yours, I think) is that he shouldn't have played it all. Once he hit TPTK on the flop, it was certainly worth a bet (pot-sized?) - I agree with you on that, too. We don't have enough info to know how he gets from there to investing a quarter of his stack in the hand, so I can't comment on that. I'm still not with you about limping with KTs. I agree that he should have bailed on the second pair post-flop in any event.

[Fitz]

The point of my original post was not to make anyone start seeing monsters under the bed. I don't believe you can play winning poker doing that. My point was that these three hands were good examples of playing hands that easily made second best hands.

In the Ax hand, there is no way I'm getting away from TPTK after the flop; the hand should have gone face down in the muck far before we got that far. I misplayed the KTs hand after the flop. The KQ hand was a bit of bad luck, but I set myself up to get unlucky by misplaying it preflop.

I'm primarily a limit hold 'em ring player. Had I played any of these hands in a regular ring game, they wouldn't really raise a red flag. In a tourney where your life is on the line every hand, I think they are good examples of things not to do.

The general idea of the orginal post was to point out the types of hands that can easily turn into trouble without you really knowing it. In the first and third hands, I had no idea I was behind until the showdown. Being in that position in a limit game is one thing, but in a NL situation, it is much worse.

Good luck,

Fitz

[OrianasDaad]

Basic reinforcement to the adage that marginal hands make second-best hands too often to be regularly playable.

Good post.

[Absolution]

So if you limp in with a marginal suited connector you're basically looking for a favorable flop (maybe hit or have a lot of outs). The question then becomes are you going to get enough out of it when you do get a good flop to make all of those wasted limps worth it. This is probably why it is recommended that most beginners (like me) don't even play these hands to start. They don't play well enough post-flop to make them worthwhile. The exception I think would be if you're in a loose game and you are getting a lot of people seeing the flop. If you hit a big hand you will probably get action without too much difficulty.