Did I misplay this hand? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Sidekick

01-01-2005, 03:01 PM

Poker Stars $5.00+$0.50 SnG.

This is the very first hand of the tournament and I don't have any notes on either of the other 2 players in the hand with me.

I reviewed my play here and I don't think I played this wrong, but it feels like I played it poorly. To me these are the trouble hands, where you don't see that you misplayed something, but you actually are misplaying the hand.

I suspsect this is a fairly common scenario for 2+2ers as well, so I thought it might be a useful hand for others as well.

Any comments on this hand are greatly appreciated.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1500)
SB (t1500)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t20, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero raises to t80, CO folds, Button calls t80, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls t60.

Flop: (t270) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets t40, Hero raises to t320, Button raises to t600, UTG+1 calls t560, Hero calls t280.

Turn: (t2070) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets t40, Hero calls t40, Button raises to t820, UTG+1 calls t780 (All-In), Hero folds.

River: (t3750) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3750

Costanza

01-01-2005, 04:20 PM

I'm also interested to see what some of the people who know what they're doing think about this one. I don't, so don't take my opinion too seriously.

I liked your preflop raise and bet on the flop. However, once the button re-raised and UTG+1 called, I think you have to let it go. Sure, one of them is probably a $5 SnG maniac, and they both might be, but I think one of them is going to show you AQ, A6 or a set.

I think calling the turn bet was a waste of 40 chips. At this point it's either push or fold, and -- especially as this is the first hand of the SnG -- folding is the only real option here.

Disclaimer: above opinions are from someone who just recently was able to get his $5.50 ROI to 10% for 170 games after being -5% in my first 60 SnG's.

Irieguy

01-01-2005, 06:33 PM

This hand illustrates a common SNG scenario: you have a very good hand that rates to be the best, but it is vulnerable and either your position or the number of opponents (or both) will make it difficult for you to figure out what you are up against.

In these cases it is usually best to play for value and give your opponents a chance to either make a mistake of aggression, or declare their hand.

For example, when the SB bets 40 on the flop, it's pretty clear that he is unlikely to have anything worthwhile. He cold-called a raise from the SB and put out this pathetic little post-oak feeler bet on the flop. If you were heads-up with him, then a healthy raise to allow him to make a big calling mistake would be the best line. But you have a late position caller to contend with here, and this flop is very dangerous for your hand. I would just call the bet on the flop and see what the button does. The button is likely to raise, but there's a chance he could telegraph the strength of his hand with the size of his raise. The bigger the raise, the more likely it is that the SB will fold and the more correct it will be for you to call. But a medium raise by the button and a call by the SB puts you in a situation where you are frequently beat, and if not, you are offering the others a great price to draw at a hand that you may have to pay off on the river due to the size of the pot. This is an example of reverse implied odds, and I would be willing to fold on the flop if I didn't like the way the hand was developing after I called the $40 flop bet.

But with the way the flop action went down, I think your call of the extra 280 was a mistake. You put yourself in a position where no matter what you do on later streets, it's likely to be a mistake. Folding TPTK with a $3000 pot is rarely correct, but building a nice drawing pot for a flush and then paying them off when it hits is not a tactic I would recommend either.

Your raise on the flop puts you in a position where you need to either push or fold if you are reraised by the button, and if you are smooth-called and a heart comes on the turn, you are in a world of hurt. It's the flop raise that got you into trouble, and learning how to play strong hands for value against multiple opponents is how you avoid these situations.

Irieguy

Lucky

01-01-2005, 06:51 PM

I'm primarily a NL Cash game player starting to play SNG's.

That being said, early in the SNG plays just like a cash game and that's when TPTK is "THE" get broke hand.

What are the other two players (esp. the button coldcall) in their with. You're best hope is big slick. More likely you'll be shown 66 (QQ in a cash game, tho players are more likely to push preflop in a SNG)or AQ (weaker players will call with this holding).

On the flop, don't raise. Call and see what happens. In NL, beware of bushwackers...oh, those snakes that lay in the tall grass. A little paranoia is not a bad thing.

Call the flop and fold to any substantial raise from the button.

Early on in a SNG, you want to avoid playing big pots with TPTK.

captZEEbo1

01-01-2005, 08:02 PM

I fold preflop, wait for a better spot to get chips.

Costanza

01-01-2005, 08:17 PM

I'm away from my copy of TPFAP right now, but after I read your post I think I remember a section of it which covers a similar situation. Basically you have a hand where you're either ahead or way behind and the advice is something along the lines of don't raise if a reraise is going to make you puke.

The part of your post I'm not really sure if I get is recommending calling UTG+1's bet on the flop. I think my problem is that I have too much information about the hand after that. The problem I see with calling is that it gives the button proper odds to call a draw...

[click... hang on... I think the room just got brighter...]

OK... now I think I get it. You want him to just call at this point, right? Because if he has a hand he's going to bet to protect it and if he's on a draw he'll probably just call.

So let's go one step further. Let's say hero and button just called UTG+1's flop bet and a blank fell on the turn instead of a heart. UTG+1 bets $40 again. Same situation, right? I could raise, but if reraised would have to push or fold and pushing just doesn't feel right there, especially on the first hand of the tournament.

One more question. Let's say you're the button in this hand. UTG+1 makes his $40 bet on the flop and hero calls. Would it be right to raise here with any decent hand?

texasrattlers

01-01-2005, 08:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop, wait for a better spot to get chips.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're kidding right?

Irieguy

01-01-2005, 08:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem I see with calling is that it gives the button proper odds to call a draw...

[/ QUOTE ]

You worry about "pricing in a draw" when you have a hand that is almost certainly ahead if called, and that you can comfortably call with if reraised. For example, 2 pair or a set with a flush draw on board. In those cases, you would want to make sure that anybody that calls you is making a mistake.

[ QUOTE ]

OK... now I think I get it. You want him to just call at this point, right? Because if he has a hand he's going to bet to protect it and if he's on a draw he'll probably just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. You gain information through his action. People rarely raise with a flush draw... they call or semibluff by pushing. What you want to find out is whether or not the button has AQ or a set. With the action developing in this hand, I think it's very unlikely that either opponent has a flush draw. The original poster folded on the turn because a flush card came... but the reason why his fold was correct is more likely to be because he was already beat on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]

So let's go one step further. Let's say hero and button just called UTG+1's flop bet and a blank fell on the turn instead of a heart. UTG+1 bets $40 again. Same situation, right? I could raise, but if reraised would have to push or fold and pushing just doesn't feel right there, especially on the first hand of the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[ QUOTE ]

One more question. Let's say you're the button in this hand. UTG+1 makes his $40 bet on the flop and hero calls. Would it be right to raise here with any decent hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would typically make a large raise with TPTK under those circumstances.

Irieguy

adanthar

01-01-2005, 11:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For example, when the SB bets 40 on the flop, it's pretty clear that he is unlikely to have anything worthwhile. He cold-called a raise from the SB and put out this pathetic little post-oak feeler bet on the flop. If you were heads-up with him, then a healthy raise to allow him to make a big calling mistake would be the best line. But you have a late position caller to contend with here, and this flop is very dangerous for your hand. I would just call the bet on the flop and see what the button does. The button is likely to raise, but there's a chance he could telegraph the strength of his hand with the size of his raise. The bigger the raise, the more likely it is that the SB will fold and the more correct it will be for you to call. But a medium raise by the button and a call by the SB puts you in a situation where you are frequently beat, and if not, you are offering the others a great price to draw at a hand that you may have to pay off on the river due to the size of the pot. This is an example of reverse implied odds, and I would be willing to fold on the flop if I didn't like the way the hand was developing after I called the $40 flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

...whoa.

Button's going to autoraise if you call? No he isn't. This is a $5, even if it is at Stars. He could call that bet with KQ, one heart because he feels like it, he could call down with tens because he feels like it, or you could raise and he could fold both of those because, well, he feels like it.

Not only that, but this little weak lead from UTG+1 is very often *exactly* that flush draw, the other option being a weak ace or absolutely nothing.

Now, the raise *amount* is wrong, for two reasons. First, it makes the pot too big. Second, anybody that makes these little bets with something they want to see a turn with will always see a turn no matter what you raise (which leads to endless posts about being unable to beat bad players waah waah [insert site here] is rigged, but that's another story.] A decent raise here is to about 200; now you have enough to make a near pot sized bet heads up on the turn and still fold to a CR.

The call of the minreraise is also wrong, because now you have a dilemma. It is likely you are beat. However, UTG+1 appears to be dead money or a draw (90% chance, give or take), the pot is huge, and you may have enough equity in it to push regardless (or the button may be overplaying AJ or another AK). This is, as you say, a push or fold (if you call, obviously, you must fold the turn.)

But the one thing you can't do is call him assuming the button will raise. The button doesn't have to do a thing; for all you know he had 22 and is now properly autofolding. Meanwhile, you *are* pricing in the draw, and worse, passing up about a billion chips because if UTG+1 is a fish with A7 he will happily call off his whole stack when the pot gets bigger.

Sidekick

01-01-2005, 11:45 PM

Normally I don't bother with posting the results, but this has been an interesting discussion and I think posting the results now will demonstrate a number of points that have been brought up in this discussion.

When I played this hand I came VERY close to playing the hand as Irieguy(sp?) described, by coming over the top for all-in on the flop as I felt certain I was against a random trash hand and an Axo. The problem was I got cold feet when I considered it was the first hand of the game and I have had a disproportionate amount of flushes hit against me in the last week (no excuse I know, but I got gun shy).

But this is also a good example of why I shouldn't let past experience affect my play in the current hand.

Thank you for all the responses. They have been helpful and enlightening. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Here are the results for the hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1500)
SB (t1500)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t20, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero raises to t80, CO folds, Button calls t80, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls t60.

Flop: (t270) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets t40, Hero raises to t320, Button raises to t600, UTG+1 calls t560, Hero calls t280.

Turn: (t2070) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets t40, Hero calls t40, Button raises to t820, UTG+1 calls t780 (All-In), Hero folds.

River: (t3750) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3750

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has Qc Jc (one pair, queens).
Button has Ad 9c (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Button wins t3750.

lastchance

03-27-2005, 07:17 PM

If this is the first hand of a $5.50 SNG, then I have to think that both of your opponents are idiots, and you should raise to t200 on the flop and push over a raise.

curtains

03-27-2005, 07:21 PM

I thought I responded to this but I can't find my post? I said to raise flop, but less than your amount, and then that I would move allin after the 3 bet. However one of the strongest reasons that I'd move allin is that this is a $5 tournament.