What to do on the Flop AQs

[JoeU]

Prima .50/1.00

My only read is on EP2 who calls with any 2 cards in the deck. All others are unknow.

I am in MP2 with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Folded to EP2 who calls, MP1 raises, I 3-bet, all fold to the BB who caps, all call. 4 to the flop for 8BB.

Flop: A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB bets, EP2 calls, MP1 raises, I.............

It seemed straight forward to me as to what to do here, but I was interested to see what the forum thought. I'll also have you know that I did hesitate when making my decision, something I normally don't do often when 3-tabling. But this hand, didn't sit well with me the whole way.

Joe

[Wario]

I would fold.

You are probably beat now but evn if you are ahead you will have to dodge loads of cards before showdown.

I hope this isn't too weak.

[JoeU]

I'm interested in your decision. What do you think my opponents have? I think that should effect your decision more that the cards you have to dodge, if you're ahead.


Joe

[Aaron W.]

I would fold this now. I don't like BB's cap preflop, I don't like MP1's raise on the flop, I don't like the flop, and I don't like my outs. (I do like EP2...)

In some sense, if you play on you're playing for the 60-something % of the pot you can get when the 4-flush doesn't come, because I'd have a hard time calling more bets with a 4-flush on the board and 3 opponents.

[JoeU]

For the record, I didn't like all the action to me. I felt like someone had AK and the other person had a big PP (AA-JJ). Either way, I thought I MIGHT have at best 2 outs, so I mucked when the heat was on me.

The BB turned over K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif.
MP1 turned over J /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif for a flopped set.
The 4th diamond never came and MP1's hand was good.
EP2 never showed, but he dumped quite a bit of money in this game. I later checked PT and his VP$IP was around 75% after 50-60 hands! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Joe

[Carmine]

I'm curious why the 3-bet PF. How do others feel about it.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious why the 3-bet PF. How do others feel about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

With a player who will call anything preflop and an unknown raiser, I don't think it's bad. EP is probably crushed by Hero and MP is very likely 50/50 with or dominated by Hero, both of which are good for Hero. If Hero calls and other players limp along, that's also good for Hero. AQs plays well short-handed and multi-way, so I don't think there's much worry either way.

[Shillx]

Fold. 3-betting is out of the question. If you had some kind of read on anyone you could make this call if they raise like fools PF and play poor postflop.

Brad

[Kasumeat]

I fold preflop here without a read. This hand doesn't hold up well against most raising hands, I'd only call here if I was sure that there'd be 5 people or so seeing the flop.

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold. 3-betting is out of the question. If you had some kind of read on anyone you could make this call if they raise like fools PF and play poor postflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm shocked anyone said fold this hand here. We're talking folding for 1 raise from MP.

What kind of hands would you call with preflop with 2 cold against unknowns? What hands do you 3-bet with?

I understand that my position is not the greatest in the world, and that many players at the table are unknown, but folding this hand in what traditionally is a loose/passive game is absolutely out of the question. In fact, since this hand does very well multiway, and many people at these limits will call 3 cold with any A, its almost a crime not to 3-bet it.

I think folding this hand in this spot in this game is very weak/tight.

Joe

[Vern]

I prefer to cold call AQs pre-flop but if it is a loose-passive table, I have TP2K and am facing two cold on the flop with no other decent draws, I either raise or more likely fold. Hard to say since I know the results now, but with TP2K against multiple opponents I want to see a showdown cheaply or be the one charging others to see the showdown, not paying multibets most likely drawing thin to dead.

Vern

[btspider]

shill is saying fold the flop.. i concur.

PF, i think folding, cold-calling, and 3-betting are all pretty close. i'd fold and wait for a read. the suitedness is a bit overrated if you are 3-betting this and trying to isolate. i'd prefer a cold-call to a 3-bet. a fold isn't bad either until you have a read. you won't make much when you flop an Ace and have the best hand. you will often see a showdown with the second best hand if he has AK.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold. 3-betting is out of the question. If you had some kind of read on anyone you could make this call if they raise like fools PF and play poor postflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm shocked anyone said fold this hand here. We're talking folding for 1 raise from MP.

What kind of hands would you call with preflop with 2 cold against unknowns? What hands do you 3-bet with?

I understand that my position is not the greatest in the world, and that many players at the table are unknown, but folding this hand in what traditionally is a loose/passive game is absolutely out of the question. In fact, since this hand does very well multiway, and many people at these limits will call 3 cold with any A, its almost a crime not to 3-bet it.

I think folding this hand in this spot in this game is very weak/tight.

Joe

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually cold-call this but as btspider said sometimes this is a pre-flop fold. You're dominated against many typical raising hands and only pulling even with most others.

[DeathDonkey]

I think 3 betting preflop is the best default play until you have a read. This can be a fold against the right type of opponent but not against the average one. I hate coldcalling here as position becomes an important factor for me if I am even considering coldcalling.

-DeathDonkey

[The13atman]

Easy fold. If MP1 had not raised, then of course raise it yourself, but facing 2 cold I can't muck fast enough.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I think 3 betting preflop is the best default play until you have a read. This can be a fold against the right type of opponent but not against the average one. I hate coldcalling here as position becomes an important factor for me if I am even considering coldcalling.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate cold-calling too but I'm a little tentative 3-betting and possibly making short-handed a hand that may be dominated. If I am ahead of someone with 99-JJ, I may not make much if the flop hits me and they easily get away from their hand. Could be a win-little, lose-more possibly scenario.

[JoeU]

I'm suprised that there is such a range of advice about the preflop play of this hand.

I want to thank everyone who responded. It has definitely made me think about the play of AQs preflop.

I might pull some AQs hands from PT and post them here for further advice.

Thanks again to everyone who responded.


Joe

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
I think folding this hand in this spot in this game is very weak/tight.


[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted to edit this post, but was too late to do so.

I wanted to add:

I think folding this hand in this spot in this game is very weak/tight (but maybe I'm too loose/aggressive).

Joe

[Shillx]

Sorry dude, I was talking about folding postflop. I love the 3-bet preflop.

Brad

[Shillx]

Yeah fold the flop.

This hand is too good to goto the muck preflop IMO.

Brad

[Joe Tall]

Had the preflop action not been so heavy and the flop play full-pressure, I would call 2-cold on this flop. However, given your reads (and lack there of) the preflop-bang-bang, this is leaning toward fold. If you are not ahead, you sure don't have clean outs to be, fold the flop.

Peace,
Joe Tall