7 Stud/8 - the cards get scary

[greenage]

PokerStars: 7 Card Stud Hi/Lo Limit ($3/$6) - $0.25 Ante.

I played this hand on New Year’s Eve and may have been imbibing, so no reads or anything remembered.

Well, I remembered to check my Email clients Inbox ‘cause I grabbed some HH’s last night.

Thought I’d post a hand or two while I sober up, err umm have breakfast. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

3rd Street (0.5 SB) - Hero is Seat 5 with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (7 players).

Seat 1: X X 7/images/graemlins/club.gif
Seat 2: X X Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 3: X X 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 4: X X 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Seat 6: X X Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 7: X X Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hero completes to $3, Seat 6 folds, Seat 7 folds, Seat 1 folds, Seat 2 folds, Seat 3 calls, Seat 4 calls.

4th Street (3.5 SB) - Hero catches A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players).

Seat 3: X X 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 4: X X 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero bets, Seat 3 folds, Seat 4 calls.

5th Street (2.8 BB) - Hero catches 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (heads-up).

Seat 4: X X 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero checks, Seat 4 bets, Hero calls.

6th Street (4.8 BB) - Hero catches 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (heads-ups).

Seat 4: X X 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hero checks, Seat 4 bets, Hero calls.

7th Street (6.8 BB) - Hero catches 5d (heads-up).

Hero checks, Seat 4 bets $3.25 and is all-in, Hero calls.

Any comments appreciated.

TIA,
Greenage

Results in white:

<font color="white">Seat 4: shows [5s Jc 4s 2d 3d 6h Ks] (HI: a straight, Deuce to Six; LO: 6,5,4,3,2)

Hero: shows [6c Ad 2h Ac 4c 8h 5d] (HI: a pair of Aces; LO: 6,5,4,2,A)
</font>

[grandgnu]

Why complete the bet at the start of the hand? I'd rather hope some of the other players stick around and increase the half of the pot that you stand to try and win.

Getting heads-up for half the pot isn't very profitable in my opinion.

[Wu36]

I like completing on 3rd, there doesnt look to be a good high hand out(with the 3 queens showing) and I'd love to get heads up with A62 against an aceless low.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I like completing on 3rd, there doesnt look to be a good high hand out(with the 3 queens showing) and I'd love to get heads up with A62 against an aceless low.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe playing a high-only hand in a hi/lo split game, trying to get heads-up is pointless. What do you expect to win? Your money back? Or more likely, your opponent will catch a low and see you can't possibly have one, AND they'll catch a higher hand than you and take the whole thing. Waste of money I think.

[greenage]

Hi grandgnu,

[ QUOTE ]

Why complete the bet at the start of the hand? I'd rather hope some of the other players stick around and increase the half of the pot that you stand to try and win.

Getting heads-up for half the pot isn't very profitable in my opinion.


[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn’t trying to get the hand heads-up and would probably be chided if I made some other post suggesting that. These folk don’t fold that easy.

In general I’m just trying to get some more aggression in my game. Not specifically strategic, just an exercise. Now if you want to tell me this hand isn’t strong enough to complete with, I won’t argue.

My Ace was live so it may save the high for me if my low falls apart. Well, that’s what I was thinking anyway.

Thank you for the post,
geenage

[greenage]

Hi grandgnu and Wu36,

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like completing on 3rd, there doesnt look to be a good high hand out(with the 3 queens showing) and I'd love to get heads up with A62 against an aceless low.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe playing a high-only hand in a hi/lo split game, trying to get heads-up is pointless. What do you expect to win? Your money back? Or more likely, your opponent will catch a low and see you can't possibly have one, AND they'll catch a higher hand than you and take the whole thing. Waste of money I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does anyone have a percentage on how often there is no qualifying low on 7 Stud/8?

If you have a strong high and can isolate to one low hand, is this -EV? I don’t know, maybe if I read a book. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Of course, it can be tough to tell on 3rd. That other hand I posted, the guy that caught the wheel had a T door card.

greenage

[greenage]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the big bet streets? Do you fold anywhere?

greenage

[Wu36]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi grandgnu and Wu36,


Does anyone have a percentage on how often there is no qualifying low on 7 Stud/8?

If you have a strong high and can isolate to one low hand, is this -EV? I don’t know, maybe if I read a book. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Of course, it can be tough to tell on 3rd. That other hand I posted, the guy that caught the wheel had a T door card.

greenage

[/ QUOTE ]
In Ray Zee's book he says that most lows, including the ones with an ace are dogs to a decent high hand. But the low hand can outplay the high hand with so many potential scare cards.

The above statement could be completely false, being that i suck at poker and am still savagely hung over.

[Wu36]

Not quite sure what this has to do with Greenage's hand but...
[ QUOTE ]

I believe playing a high-only hand in a hi/lo split game, trying to get heads-up is pointless.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you were to play a big pair, why wouldnt you try to isolate a low draw? Multiway action would all but kill your scoop potential.
[ QUOTE ]
What do you expect to win? Your money back? Or more likely, your opponent will catch a low and see you can't possibly have one, AND they'll catch a higher hand than you and take the whole thing. Waste of money I think.

[/ QUOTE ]
And some of the time the low draw will brick out, or pair up one too many times and you'll scoop.Unless you've been talking about stud hi low with no qualifier (as opposed to stud8) I see no problem isolating a low draw with a big pair.

If i misread something, i apologize.
disclaimer: i still suck.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
If you were to play a big pair, why wouldnt you try to isolate a low draw? Multiway action would all but kill your scoop potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

A pair of 9's is not a big pair. The only thing I'd consider in this situation is Kings or Aces as a big pair. Given the texture of the board, I don't see why he'd bother getting involved. If this was just plain old Stud I could see it. But with low draws it's pretty risky playing hands where you only have one way to win the pot, in my opinion.


[ QUOTE ]
And some of the time the low draw will brick out, or pair up one too many times and you'll scoop.Unless you've been talking about stud hi low with no qualifier (as opposed to stud8) I see no problem isolating a low draw with a big pair.

If i misread something, i apologize.
disclaimer: i still suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I was talking about 8 or better hi/lo. Yes, the low hand might not catch their low, but they could still outdraw your pair of 9's. Or they could catch their low AND outdraw your 9's. Either way, you're playing heads-up for what might be the whole pot, or half the pot, or maybe none of the pot. But on average here, let's say you're playing for half the pot. That being the case, it's a waste of your time and money (given the rake)

I'd much rather be involved in a multi-way pot where I have a ridiculously strong low hand and can see my opponents can't beat it, and keep them putting more money in for me to take in the end.

Then again, I am in no way a 7-card stud hi/lo master, but I consider myself pretty good (finished up 18th out of 721 in a tournament the last time I played)

[Wu36]

Are we talking about different hands here? I think Greenage posted a hand where he played split 9s with a J kicker, the hand in question is A6 2. But in general I agree, a pair of 9s (or any pair other than kings aces and maybe queens) should be mucked in 8b. The (9J)9 hand. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1460429&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1)

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Are we talking about different hands here? I think Greenage posted a hand where he played split 9s with a J kicker, the hand in question is A6 2. But in general I agree, a pair of 9s (or any pair other than kings aces and maybe queens) should be mucked in 8b. The (9J)9 hand. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1460429&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy schnikes, you're right batman! Yeah, sorry about that, my mind was on the other hand. :P

[Andy B]

I haven't read the results or the other responses yet. Bringing it in for a full bet is fine. Betting fourth is mandatory. I would continue to bet on fifth. His board is a little scary, but if he's paired, you probably have the best hand both ways. Unless he has a straight, you can't be in that bad of shape. Still, checking isn't the end of the world. Checking and calling on sixth seems prudent. On seventh, I think a bet is mandatory. He's almost all-in, so you can't be raised. The only way he can beat your low is if he has an Ace, and you have two of those. Your low is an overwhelming favorite to be good, and you just might have the best high hand. If you're beaten, the money is going in anyway, and you can't let him check behind when you scoop.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you fold anywhere?

[/ QUOTE ]

Egads, no.

[Andy B]

The reason to get it heads-up with a high hand is that your scoop chances improve dramatically as the low hand will bust a lot of the time. In low-limit games, though, you're not going to have many heads-up pots, so one-way high hands lose a lot of their value.

[Andy B]

Does PokerStars allow you to mix your hole cards on the end? If the other guy started with (K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, he played OK. If that Jack was one of his original hole cards--hoo boy.

[greenage]

Hi Andy,

[ QUOTE ]
Bringing it in for a full bet is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks.

[ QUOTE ]
Betting fourth is mandatory.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yea, I can't see not betting here.

[ QUOTE ]
I would continue to bet on fifth. His board is a little scary, but if he's paired, you probably have the best hand both ways. Unless he has a straight, you can't be in that bad of shape. Still, checking isn't the end of the world.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, maybe I got panicky too soon.

[ QUOTE ]
Checking and calling on sixth seems prudent.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was sweating bullets here and this street is the main reason I posted this hand. Would you ever consider folding here?

[ QUOTE ]
On seventh, I think a bet is mandatory. He's almost all-in, so you can't be raised. The only way he can beat your low is if he has an Ace, and you have two of those. Your low is an overwhelming favorite to be good, and you just might have the best high hand. If you're beaten, the money is going in anyway, and you can't let him check behind when you scoop.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, thanks. I'm not sure if I was aware of his stack at the time. I'll try to remember this for the future though.

Thanks for the post,
greenage

[Wu36]

[ QUOTE ]
Does PokerStars allow you to mix your hole cards on the end? If the other guy started with (K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, he played OK. If that Jack was one of his original hole cards--hoo boy.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure stars doesn't shuffle hole cards.

[greenage]

[ QUOTE ]
Does PokerStars allow you to mix your hole cards on the end? If the other guy started with (K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, he played OK. If that Jack was one of his original hole cards--hoo boy.

[/ QUOTE ]

No they don't, what you see is what they had. The only site I play on that allows this is Paradise and they note it in the hand history.

greenage

[Andy B]

OK, so this guy started with garbage and made a Six-high straight on you. If you know that he is prone to play garbage, for a full bet no less, you should be inclined to bet fifth.

[lstream]

[ QUOTE ]
No they don't, what you see is what they had. The only site I play on that allows this is Paradise and they note it in the hand history.

[/ QUOTE ]

Empire/Party lets you do this. You have to request it though.

[greenage]

I didn't realize that, I'll have to check it out.

greenage

[Andy B]

There is no point at which I consider folding this hand. Even if he isn't short-stacked, I think you can bet the river. It is very unlikely that he has you beaten for low, and your Aces just might be good for high. It's close, though.