First post. Playing KQo. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Solaryn

01-01-2005, 01:35 PM

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.35.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (8.80 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (8 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (7.40 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button folds, UTG+1 folds.

River: (10.40 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 16.40 BB

btspider

01-01-2005, 01:36 PM

i raise PF, the rest is fine. you can probably fold the river, but sometimes an opponent gets crazy with the two-way scare card.

where's the question?

Wario

01-01-2005, 01:43 PM

Raise KQ pre-flop. The rest is well played.

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 01:55 PM

I fold KQo in early position but I'm not playing .25/.50 anymore either. In .25/.50 I agree, you should be raising this preflop. KQo does not do well in multi-handed pots so you want to raise to reduce the number of callers.

cab4656

01-01-2005, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I fold KQo in early position but I'm not playing .25/.50 anymore either. In .25/.50 I agree, you should be raising this preflop. KQo does not do well in multi-handed pots so you want to raise to reduce the number of callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you're saying is, you normally fold KQo in early position but because this is .25/.50 you'd make an exception? What are you folding it at? 1/2? 3/6?

OilMan

01-01-2005, 02:14 PM

Should you really consider folding the river for one more bet getting 15 to 1? I am interested to hear what people think about this. I find myself in this position often (betting top pair/good kicker while others are on drawing hands).

The raise on the river says "I made my flush" or "I just got trips w/ my A6o". With the pot odds at 15 to 1, is this a:

1.) Easy call
2.) Easy fold
3.) Depends on the player and his previous play

btspider

01-01-2005, 02:24 PM

its definitely not an easy fold. definitely be more inclined to call than fold.

this board texture doesn't leave many hands that you beat that would raise here after both players put money in. i'd call, but not really like it. try to catch an aggro Qx or a bluff. with a smaller pot, i might fold.

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 02:47 PM

I folded it at .50/$1. I folded it at $1/$2. And I now fold it at $2/$4.

And yes, I make exception for .25/.50 and below games as they are so loose that many players are playing any two cards and KQ is not dominated nearly as often.

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 02:50 PM

With 14 (obviously going to be 16) BBs in the pot, folding is not an option holding top pair. Not in my eyes.

cab4656

01-01-2005, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I folded it at .50/$1. I folded it at $1/$2. And I now fold it at $2/$4.

And yes, I make exception for .25/.50 and below games as they are so loose that many players are playing any two cards and KQ is not dominated nearly as often.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, you are way way way too tight. Read Small Stakes Hold Em. Or any halfway decent low limit hold em book for that matter.

shadow29

01-01-2005, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I folded it at .50/$1. I folded it at $1/$2. And I now fold it at $2/$4.

And yes, I make exception for .25/.50 and below games as they are so loose that many players are playing any two cards and KQ is not dominated nearly as often.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, you are way way way too tight. Read Small Stakes Hold Em. Or any halfway decent low limit hold em book for that matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

KQo is a trouble hand at 1/2 and (I presume) 2/4. I'll fold it UTG at 1/2. I'll raise it in MP and LP. It depends.

Anyway, I'm sure Cardzy has read SSHE.

cab4656

01-01-2005, 02:57 PM

Trouble hand? You gotta be kidding. This isn't NL where you flop top pair and get taken for your whole stack because someone smooth-called with AK. KQ UTG is a solid winner for me at every level through 3/6. There is no question for me - KQo gets raised 99% of the time UTG.

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In that case, you are way way way too tight. Read Small Stakes Hold Em. Or any halfway decent low limit hold em book for that matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, yeah I'll get right on that. Thanks for the advice.

cab4656

01-01-2005, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In that case, you are way way way too tight. Read Small Stakes Hold Em. Or any halfway decent low limit hold em book for that matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, yeah I'll get right on that. Thanks for the advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can recognize you're joking. You shouldn't. You should instead realize that if you're regularly folding hands like KQo in early position you either are playing way too tight or have terrible game selection.

Entity

01-01-2005, 04:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In that case, you are way way way too tight. Read Small Stakes Hold Em. Or any halfway decent low limit hold em book for that matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, yeah I'll get right on that. Thanks for the advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Cardzy,

I know you're being sarcastic, but you're giving up too much by folding KQo in any position, if the pot hasn't been raised yet. Folding KQo is terrible.

Rob

shadow29

01-01-2005, 04:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Folding KQo is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you raising KQo UTG at 1/2, Rob?

I generally won't.

Entity

01-01-2005, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Folding KQo is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you raising KQo UTG at 1/2, Rob?

I generally won't.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on the table. At 2/4 I'm raising it. At tight 1/2 tables, I'd limp. At loose 1/2 tables, I'd raise. I'm ok with raising it at any table, but I'm sure there are reasons to limp.

I'm not folding it.

Rob

DeathDonkey

01-01-2005, 04:39 PM

I do at every limit I play. It is slightly profitable for me. I can't imagine how low your VPIP must be folding things like this.

-DeathDonkey

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 04:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know you're being sarcastic, but you're giving up too much by folding KQo in any position, if the pot hasn't been raised yet. Folding KQo is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being sarcastic to the remarks that are basically telling me he is better than me and I'm a newbie that should buy a book. If that is his opinion, he has every right to feel that way and can continue to feel that way as it does not affect me or my game.

Ok, as for the folding of KQo in early position. In tight games this hand gets dominated a lot. If you raise from early position the players will put you on a big hand such as AQ, AJ, AK, etc. The only hands they are gonna call you with are hands that can or very well might beat those hands. This is my thinking on the subject anyway.

And by tight I don't mean Ed Miller's version of tight. 5 players seeing a flop is NOT tight.

I don't feel I am losing much by folding this hand in early position as it costs me money enough times from that position to warrant it, in my opinion. I think any loss of profit here is minimal for the reduced risk taken.

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 04:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine how low your VPIP must be folding things like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

15.5-17%.

cab4656

01-01-2005, 04:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was being sarcastic to the remarks that are basically telling me he is better than me and I'm a newbie that should buy a book. If that is his opinion, he has every right to feel that way and can continue to feel that way as it does not affect me or my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is that suggesting you read SSH is good advice, while suggesting folding KQo preflop in early position is bad advice.

Entity

01-01-2005, 04:57 PM

Cardzy,

You'd probably like to read this thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1429808&page=4&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

Fact is, you're simply giving up too much by not playing this. If you want to limp it, as some suggest (and I don't necessarily think thats a bad play, though you're giving people too much credit if you think they're only playing hands that dominate you when you raise -- especially at .5/1-2/4), that's fine. But folding it is bad.

In a 10-handed game, KQo is +.04BB/hand UTG, according to Pokerroom's EV stats.

The hand is simply too good to fold because you don't want to learn how to play it postflop. You aren't sacrificing that much variance for EV.

Rob

shadow29

01-01-2005, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The only hands they are gonna call you with are hands that can or very well might beat those hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I raise it in MP, LP, and sometimes Late EP. But raising UTG at 1/2---what seems to happen to me is either I get 3-bet and I don't know exactly where I'm at if a K or Q flops or something else.

I raised it UTG every time at .5/1, however. My vpip is concurrent with 2+2 standards at appx. 17%. Moreover, I'm not (generally) folding KQo UTG, I'm limping and treating it a lot like a PP.

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 04:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The difference is that suggesting you read SSH is good advice, while suggesting folding KQo preflop in early position is bad advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, your right and I'm wrong. Do you still go by a preflop chart as well? Go away now please.

Entity

01-01-2005, 05:01 PM

cab4656

01-01-2005, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The difference is that suggesting you read SSH is good advice, while suggesting folding KQo preflop in early position is bad advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, your right and I'm wrong. Do you still go by a preflop chart as well? Go away now please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you feel the need to constantly flame me? You are wrong, and you should realize that before you start telling other people that it's okay to fold KQo in early position.

I'd like to see you try to back up your outrageous claims. Entity posted the PokerRoom EV stats. They show KQo has positive expectation in early position. And that's for the average online micro-limit fish. I'm sure you are better than that.

shadow29

01-01-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1429808&page=4&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, guess I'm wrong then.

Is there a big difference, however, between limping and raising w/ KQo UTG at 1/2?

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Why do you feel the need to constantly flame me? You are wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not flaming you. I am trying to get you off my damn back already. You belittled me and I did the same to you. If you can't take it then don't dish it.

[ QUOTE ]

you should realize that before you start telling other people that it's okay to fold KQo in early position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did I tell other people it is ok to fold KQo in early position. I didn't. I stated "I" fold KQo in early position.

[ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see you try to back up your outrageous claims.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, what "claims" did I make? I didn't claim anything. I stated, and I quote, "I don't feel I am losing much by folding this hand in early position as it costs me money enough times from that position to warrant it, in my opinion. I think any loss of profit here is minimal for the reduced risk taken. "

So I CLAIMED that I have an opinion and that I think. Shame on me.

Entity

01-01-2005, 05:32 PM

Hey Cardzy,

We're all here to learn and improve our games. Cab was too glib and dogmatic, but he's right. He shouldn't have belittled you, but I guess that's part of how we communicate here. Regardless, Folding KQo is losing a player like you (you seem good postflop) money in the long run.

If your opinion is that people will only call with hands that dominate you when you raise, you're wrong. Sometimes good players will call with hands that dominate you, but more often, they'll 3-bet. And you'll have to play poker postflop.

I think you'll increase your winrate ever-so-slightly by stopping folding this hand.

Rob

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 05:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In a 10-handed game, KQo is +.04BB/hand UTG, according to Pokerroom's EV stats.

The hand is simply too good to fold because you don't want to learn how to play it postflop. You aren't sacrificing that much variance for EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Entity, you know I respect your opinion. I understand it is a +EV hand in early position. But is .04bb that big of a deal? Even if you play it postflop perfectly the majority of the time, won't the occasional misplay of it postflop dismiss the profit potential? When you are multi-tabling you do not always play hands perfectly as sheat happens.

With it only being marginally profitable at .04 the occasional error in play could cost you that much or more, no?

Oh and btw, as much as I post here and ask questions and take people's advice, I think you know better than "I don't want to learn how to play it postflop." /images/graemlins/wink.gif Of course I do.

Entity

01-01-2005, 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With it only being marginally profitable at .04 the occasional error in play could cost you that much or more, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing something. The average of all players playing KQo UTG at PokerRoom's 2/4 (which is tighter than PartyPoker's 2/4, FYI) is .04BB/hand. A good player will generally be making much more with this. Fishy players bring that average down, while good players can expect to win more.

FYI, AJo is exactly 0BB/hand in the same situation, and 99 is .06BB/hand. Are you folding those because it's easy to misplay them postflop?

In limit, all of our profit comes from exploiting small edges over hundreds of thousands of hands. If you selectively remove those edges, your winrate goes down. Find the edges and exploit them. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

Shillx

01-01-2005, 05:50 PM

Even the tightest player on here plays KQo UTG! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Why are you so quick to limp with JTs but not KQo? How is ure VPIP so high if you won't even play this hand?

Happy new year,

Brad

Shillx

01-01-2005, 05:53 PM

Probably not. There are better times to do each. Limping is probably better if the table is real loose. I would only fold if the table is just crazy aggro and every hand is getting capped PF (with only like 4-5 to the flop).

Happy new year,

Brad

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With it only being marginally profitable at .04 the occasional error in play could cost you that much or more, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing something. The average of all players playing KQo UTG at PokerRoom's 2/4 (which is tighter than PartyPoker's 2/4, FYI) is .04BB/hand. A good player will generally be making much more with this. Fishy players bring that average down, while good players can expect to win more.

FYI, AJo is exactly 0BB/hand in the same situation, and 99 is .06BB/hand. Are you folding those because it's easy to misplay them postflop?

In limit, all of our profit comes from exploiting small edges over hundreds of thousands of hands. If you selectively remove those edges, your winrate goes down. Find the edges and exploit them. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting info. As for AJo, yes I fold that DEPENDING on the table and players. I often play it from early position as well.

Ok bud, next question for you. Why is it ok to limp with this hand from early position? I don't get that at all. It is an offsuit hand and limping encourages others to limp therefore encouraging a multi-way pot which this hand does not fair well in.

Shillx

01-01-2005, 05:56 PM

If you raise from early position the players will put you on a big hand such as AQ, AJ, AK, etc. The only hands they are gonna call you with are hands that can or very well might beat those hands

Not true. If this is the case, you either need to find a new game or do a lot of limping and bluff at lots of pots after the flop.

Brad

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 05:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you so quick to limp with JTs but not KQo?

[/ QUOTE ]

JTs is good multi-way, KQo isn't.

[ QUOTE ]
How is ure VPIP so high if you won't even play this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play this hand. Just not from early position. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif And good question!

Shillx

01-01-2005, 06:05 PM

Everyone will get theirs with AK and AA and whatnot. The best players constantly push small edges and that is what gets you the 3 BB/100 type winrates.

KQo is at .26BB/hand in EP for me. That is some pretty serious EV you are missing out on when you fold (granted I have been running pretty good with this hand.)

When you have 1000 KQo hands in your database, you will thank all of us for that extra $200 you will have made by raising it preflop in EP.

Brad

Entity

01-01-2005, 06:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
JTs is good multi-way, KQo isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh.

Yeah, JTs is slightly better multiway. It isn't such a huge difference that you want to limp with JTs in TIGHT games and not KQo though. That's just bad. 9-ways against random hands, KQo has 16.9% equity, and JTs has 18%. Is that such a huge difference?

The reason I'll limp in tighter games it to allow tight players the chance to limp with hands that they might not call raises with, like QJs, QTs, KJs, KTs...

I'll play KQo anyday in a multiway pot or a HU pot.

Rob

Entity

01-01-2005, 06:08 PM

By not raising with KQo, you can occasionally encourage tight players to limp with dominated suited hands. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1462059&page=2&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Rob

Wario

01-01-2005, 06:10 PM

Entity what are you using to calculate the EV of hands?

Entity

01-01-2005, 06:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Entity what are you using to calculate the EV of hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerRoom EV stats. (http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/evstats/expValue)

Caution, these are the stats for hands with all players; they aren't sorted out by whether the player is good or not. It's really the test of a hand's true strength, though, when it is profitable UTG when bad players and good players play it alike.

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
By not raising with KQo, you can occasionally encourage tight players to limp with dominated suited hands. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1462059&page=2&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL!!!!!! I love it. You have made a good point.

Ok, you have convinced me. I will start playing KQo in early position and see how well I fare. If after 10k hands I am in the negative I go back to folding it in early position though. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif (this is assuming I am playing postflop properly and will post several examples during this time frame to insure that)

Oh, btw, I'm hurt that you saw that post and didn't criticize it as I expected! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wario

01-01-2005, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Entity what are you using to calculate the EV of hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerRoom EV stats. (http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/evstats/expValue)

Caution, these are the stats for hands with all players; they aren't sorted out by whether the player is good or not. It's really the test of a hand's true strength, though, when it is profitable UTG when bad players and good players play it alike.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet. Thanks.

Entity

01-01-2005, 06:15 PM

Good. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If it's that +EV for Shill UTG, it's definitely profitable, especially when he's been running bad. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

Shillx

01-01-2005, 06:21 PM

Meh playing bad too. I read bakeli's (spelling?) post yesterday about playing poker online as a pro.

I have a few ideas about what to do differently in the new year.

One of them is not folding KQo preflop for one bet! I'll tell party poker to deal you KQo everyhand and then we'll see if you play it or not. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Brad

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 06:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'll tell party poker to deal you KQo everyhand and then we'll see if you play it or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you don't think I would make plenty of money only playing it from mid and late? Come on now! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Solaryn

01-01-2005, 07:01 PM

It's amazing how such a simple hand can generate such responses. Thanks!

So the consensus is that limping (even raising) with KQo in MP is OK especially in a loose game. (BTW, this table was loose with 50% seeing flop almost every hand.) Betting out on subsequent streets was also OK. Calling the river raise even though I was clenching my teeth was also correct.

Cardzy

01-01-2005, 07:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's amazing how such a simple hand can generate such responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems every hand I comment on generates these responses. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

uclaguy

01-07-2005, 03:59 AM

This hand seems fairly simple, you limped in with KQo...fair enough. You flopped top pair with a backdoor flush and an open ended straight: def. a betting hand for a semi-bluff if not for value. The river bet is not advisable however. Just check and call becuase it is unlikely that a person calling all the way down, and seeing another club would raise on a bluff. Why else would he be calling the whole way if not on a draw? Maybe he has a queen and worse kicker and puts you on a steal, but I think that is much less likely. scare card comes on the river check and call, dont bet because only a better will call/raise you.

Entity

01-07-2005, 04:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This hand seems fairly simple, you limped in with KQo...fair enough. You flopped top pair with a backdoor flush and an open ended straight: def. a betting hand for a semi-bluff if not for value. The river bet is not advisable however. Just check and call becuase it is unlikely that a person calling all the way down, and seeing another club would raise on a bluff. Why else would he be calling the whole way if not on a draw? Maybe he has a queen and worse kicker and puts you on a steal, but I think that is much less likely. scare card comes on the river check and call, dont bet because only a better will call/raise you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an easy easy value bet on the river. Advocating check/calling this river is bad.

Rob