Bet size against the flush draw

[IMTheWalrus8]

So you've flopped a strong hand (top pair w/high kicker, two pair or a set), and there are two suits on the board. Let's assume you don't have any of that suit.

Is this ALWAYS a bet of 3/4 of the pot or more? How much consideration is the number of players involved?

I'm concerned that I am losing chips by betting this much, particularly against one person, which is based on the assumption that someone is on a flush draw. Perhaps I should just be happy to take the pot right there.

[zaxx19]

If you are worried about not extracting with TPTK you are really getting pretty greedy in most situations...really depends on the hand the flop...the stacks...you need to post a specific hand.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm concerned that I am losing chips by betting this much, particularly against one person, which is based on the assumption that someone is on a flush draw. Perhaps I should just be happy to take the pot right there.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you are getting at.
How are you losing chips?

Regards,
Woodguy

[BUCKS COUNTY, PA]

I believe he's saying that because of his strong bets on the flop (fear of flush draws) he's chasing away hands that he is dominating and not extracting enough chips.

[IMTheWalrus8]

OK I need to supply more information, sorry about that.

I'll give two scenarios:

1. First level of MTT, no reads, everyone has plenty in relation to the blinds, which are 10/20. You limped on the button preflop w/As 10d against BB and MP. 60 in the pot.

Flop comes 10h 5h 2d. BB bets 20, MP calls, so there is 100 in the pot. Automatic bet of 100? That's what I bet in this situation.

2. This is the tough one. Mid-tourney, 100/200, you have t9000 in MP and raise 5xBB w/10h 10s. Only caller is big stack t22000 LAG who has won with all kinds of hands. 2300 in the pot.

Flop comes Ah 10d 3d. What do you bet here?

[IMTheWalrus8]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe he's saying that because of his strong bets on the flop (fear of flush draws) he's chasing away hands that he is dominating and not extracting enough chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[woodguy]

I don't know how valid my analysis is given that I struggle with this too.
In fact, I was thinking of posting some hands where I believe I have played too fast.

But, I'm sitting here, so I might as well throw my $0.02 at it...

[ QUOTE ]

1. First level of MTT, no reads, everyone has plenty in relation to the blinds, which are 10/20. You limped on the button preflop w/As 10d against BB and MP. 60 in the pot.

Flop comes 10h 5h 2d. BB bets 20, MP calls, so there is 100 in the pot. Automatic bet of 100? That's what I bet in this situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

That looks about right. You probably have the best hand now, but there are 18 cards (all K-J, and 6 other hearts) that could come off on the turn to scare you.
Its an unraised pot so your opponents could have anything, and you want to win this pot right now, so a PSB is what I would do.

[ QUOTE ]
2. This is the tough one. Mid-tourney, 100/200, you have t9000 in MP and raise 5xBB w/10h 10s. Only caller is big stack t22000 LAG who has won with all kinds of hands. 2300 in the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I like leading out with about 1/2 pot bet here, I generally don't worry about the flush draw against just one opponent, but a 1/2 pot bet gives him 3-1 on a call which gives a flush draw inncorrect odds and it can look weak to someone holding a big A, and they may raise you here. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

If your opponent has AA here, well good for them, you were destined to go broke on this hand.

I also lead out 1/2-2/3 pot bet when I miss too, or when I have an overpair, or TPTK, so if anyone is paying attention, they still have a tough time putting me on a hand.

You can check/raise, but often that will just scare out hands that you dominate and you don't want to scare your opponent away.

Leading out helps build a pot, and you want your opponent to feel tied to the pot so you can grab as many of their chips as you can.

Here is a similar example to yours, it was early in a two table tourney, but the concept is similar. (and its the only HH I have handy that fits this thread)


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button (t870)
<font color="#C00000">SB (t1080)</font>
BB (t935)
UTG (t735)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t2130)</font>
MP1 (t1785)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t810)
CO (t855)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t75</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t65, BB calls t55, UTG folds.

Flop: (t245) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t300</font>, BB folds, Hero calls t150.

Turn: (t845) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t800</font>, SB calls t305 (All-In).

River: (t2350) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2350

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has As Ah (one pair, aces).
Hero has 9d 9c (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: Hero wins t2350. </font>

I love cracking slowplayed AA. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Regards,
Woodguy

[zaxx19]

Ya from the time I read the first post I was wondering why this guy was trying to "slowplay" or extract with TPGK..I mean these arent moster hands you are gonna end up trapping yourself alot by trying to pry every last cent from a pair of J's ..doesnt make much ssense to me. And dont limp with AA on the button raise and hope people see it as a steal attempt and play back.

[ImDaMan]

I'm no expert in the area, but in Dan Harrington's book, absent any specific reads, you want to make it a mistake for your opponent to call.

In scenario 1, betting 100, your opponent would be correct to call a $100 bet since the pot will now pay him $200 for his $100 call. Pot odds of 2:1 for a better than 2:1 flush draw(I think it's approx 1.86:1). I think I'd bet $150 - $200 so that your opponent is making a mistake by calling.

In scenario 2, I agree that you probably shouldn't be as fearful of one opponent being on the flush draw, however, there's also a straight draw. I'd want to take the pot down right now. In order to ensure your opponent is making a mistake by calling on a flush draw(or str8t draw), I'd either a.)bet 1.5 - 2 times the pot and be content to take the pot down now, or b.)wait until the turn to see if the odds get worse for your opponent then bet an amount that would be wrong for your opponent to call.

Of course your opponent may make an incorrect call, and you end up losing the hand, but at least you made your opponent pay the wrong price - you bet the correct amount when you had a significant advantage.

Dan Harrington opened my eyes to this theory of betting an amount that would cause your opponent to be making a mistake to call. If you haven't picked up Dan's book, I'd strongly recommend it.

Al

[Kaz The Original]

It's not really 1.86:1 because you can charge on the turn.

[ImDaMan]

Kaz is correct. I was thinking of the odds to see 2 cards. Thanks for correcting.

Al

[IMTheWalrus8]

[ QUOTE ]
Dan Harrington opened my eyes to this theory of betting an amount that would cause your opponent to be making a mistake to call. If you haven't picked up Dan's book, I'd strongly recommend it.

Al

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually why I asked the question. I picked up the Harrington book a few weeks ago and am making his recommended bet. I've been surprised by the percentage of times it wins the pot for me, and was wondering if it might be costing me.

It's a great book. His explanation of the continuation and probe bets has really improved my game.

Sounds like I'm doing the right thing against the draw.

[zaxx19]

Winning pots loses money for you?? Not letting people draw is bad??

This is no-limit play not limit correct?? I mean when you make a TP with a J in a raised pot...in your mind are you looking to extract?? or win the pot??