JTs Turns Top Two

[ecooke]

Good game. For specificity BB and MP1 are each LP-P and have watched my stack grow over the last 100 hands or so.
Nevertheless the Turn and River seem questionable. Thoughts?


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

[Cardzy]

I cap that turn myself. On the river I would probably check/call because I'm weak like that on the river, but I think the proper play after capping the turn would be to bet out on the river.

Others thoughts?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I cap that turn myself. On the river I would probably check/call because I'm weak like that on the river, but I think the proper play after capping the turn would be to bet out on the river.

Others thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands will he 3-bet with that make capping correct?

Rob

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
What hands will he 3-bet with that make capping correct?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

T4s, T6s, 46s, a limped overpair...I don't think it necessarily has to be a set.

That said, especially against a demonstrated passive player, I think you have to go into calldown mode after being 3bet on consecutive streets. The cynical side of me says villian probably limped QQ or something like that, but my gut says that he did flop a set, and then went back into his shell when 3 to a straight showed up on the river.

[DemonDeac Holding Rockets]

bet the river

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
T4s, T6s, 46s, a limped overpair...I don't think it necessarily has to be a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think these are possible, but considering their loose-passive nature, I don't think they are 3-betting the flop and the turn very often with those. 3 combos of 66 and 44, 1 combo of TT; 1 combo of T6s (T/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif), 2 combo of T4s (T/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif4/images/graemlins/heart.gif), 2 combos of 64s (6/images/graemlins/club.gif4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif). That's 7 possible sets and 5 possible 2pr hands; weighted with the fact that they don't 3-bet 2pr on the flop and the turn as often as they'll 3-bet a set, I don't see too much value in a cap. If they're loose enough that 64o or T4o are possible, that changes things slightly, but I still like the line Hero took here just fine.

Rob

[Cardzy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I cap that turn myself. On the river I would probably check/call because I'm weak like that on the river, but I think the proper play after capping the turn would be to bet out on the river.

Others thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands will he 3-bet with that make capping correct?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

If it wasn't a fish I would agree with you totally as who in his right mind is going to 3-bet after getting check/raised on that turn unless they have a set. But a LP-P player isn't even going to notice he got check/raised half the time and just bet his hand. I think more than likely he flopped two pair.

Just my read on it though.

[Cardzy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
T4s, T6s, 46s, a limped overpair...I don't think it necessarily has to be a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think these are possible, but considering their loose-passive nature, I don't think they are 3-betting the flop and the turn very often with those. 3 combos of 66 and 44, 1 combo of TT; 1 combo of T6s (T/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif), 2 combo of T4s (T/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif4/images/graemlins/heart.gif), 2 combos of 64s (6/images/graemlins/club.gif4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif). That's 7 possible sets and 5 possible 2pr hands; weighted with the fact that they don't 3-bet 2pr on the flop and the turn as often as they'll 3-bet a set, I don't see too much value in a cap. If they're loose enough that 64o or T4o are possible, that changes things slightly, but I still like the line Hero took here just fine.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. Good points. I think your probably right. The line he took was good. I'm overly aggressive as you know, so it's something I need to work on.

What you say here makes a lot of sense though. After reconsidering it, I agree, my suggestion of capping isn't the best move here.

(God I need to fix my aggression problem!) /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I cap that turn myself. On the river I would probably check/call because I'm weak like that on the river, but I think the proper play after capping the turn would be to bet out on the river.

Others thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands will he 3-bet with that make capping correct?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

If it wasn't a fish I would agree with you totally as who in his right mind is going to 3-bet after getting check/raised on that turn unless they have a set. But a LP-P player isn't even going to notice he got check/raised half the time and just bet his hand. I think more than likely he flopped two pair.

Just my read on it though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, read my other post. I think the weighted combo of the number of viable 2pr hands (even for a loose-passive, if he isn't 80% VPIP, he's only got suited 2pr hands most of the time) and the fact that loose-passives don't always 3-bet the turn with 2pr, makes this more of a call the 3-bet and check-call the river.

Rob

[Cardzy]

[ QUOTE ]
Meh, read my other post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just did and replied. Read my other post. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Hehe, we are posting at the same time.

[ecooke]

Hero has Td Jd (two pair, jacks and tens).
MP1 has 4c 6c (two pair, sixes and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.50 BB

Thanks for your comments. I agree that capping the Turn against a LP-P is probably not the way to go, but he really threw me off when he checked the river through. That play was out of character for what the villain had shown up to that point. Similarly, someone made the case that when the villain flopped 2 two pair he stopped paying attention to the action (i.e. Turn c/r) and went on auto ram and jam. Looks consistent with MP1's play (i.e. consecutive 3-betting).

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero has Td Jd (two pair, jacks and tens).
MP1 has 4c 6c (two pair, sixes and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.50 BB

Thanks for your comments. I agree that capping the Turn against a LP-P is probably not the way to go, but he really threw me off when he checked the river through. That play was out of character for what the villain had shown up to that point. Similarly, someone made the case that when the villain flopped 2 two pair he stopped paying attention to the action (i.e. Turn c/r) and went on auto ram and jam. Looks consistent with MP1's play (i.e. consecutive 3-betting).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played it fine. Overall I think capping the turn against LPP's is -EV, but I might re-evaluate your read on this guy for the future. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ecooke]

[ QUOTE ]
but I might re-evaluate your read on this guy for the future.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good Point - I'll do that.
Happy New Year All!

[ecooke]

In retrospect it would have earned me another bet. But as we all know hindsight is 20/20.
So after a LP-P player three bets a Turn c/r tell me the logic for leading the River please.

[tolbiny]

enough of a scare card hit ts slow down his betting on the river. If the player really is loose passive/passive, then it is likley that he will not raise the river (as he wouldn't pump the draw on the turn, and wont often raise without the nuts on the river) and you end up paying the same 1 bet when behind, but collecting that same bet when ahead when he would have checked behind with smaller 2 pair.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

I've seen LPP turn into maniacs with AA/KK, dont expect reasoned play out of LPP. Cap the turn, bet the river if they raise the river then I just call with top two.

Thanks,
MarkV.