KQs runs into serious trouble [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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private joker

12-31-2004, 08:29 PM

OK this table was insane. MP1 was the ring-leader of the madness, for he was a total maniac LAG. He would 3-bet rivers with 9-high. He burned through a couple hundred bucks in no time at all. Everyone else was there to capitalize on it, including me. I can't remember the last time he didn't raise PF. My 3-bet was hoping I could fold most everyone else out, but it sure didn't work out that way. Capped to the flop. After this flop action, I knew it would be capped on every street from now on. How's this fold? I know the pot is huge, but knowing I'm going to have to pay 2 more SB plus 3-4BB on the turn and 3-4BB on the river, can I justify calling?

I didn't think so. Even if I'm ahead (highly doubtful after this action), any spade could kill my hand. If I'm behind, what are my outs? Q is no good if I'm against AQ or a set. K is no good if I'm against a set or AT. Even if a K is good, it probably shouldn't be the K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. So I've discounted my Q outs to 1 instead of 2, my K outs to 1.5 instead of 3 -- that gives me 2.5 outs.

Uh oh. I am getting those odds to see the turn, aren't I? In the heat of the hand it looked bad. Does anyone out there not despise this horrific fold? Especially given that if I hit the K/images/graemlins/spade.gif I'll be paying 4BB to redraw to a boat?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 caps, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (24 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB calls, BB folds, MP1 caps, MP3 calls, Hero folds...

SCfuji

12-31-2004, 08:34 PM

i stay around. button could have Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif or something of that sort. i think the maniac will be throwing too much dead money into the pot foryou to fold top pair.

BWebb

12-31-2004, 08:41 PM

In my experience, players like this cause two things to happen. First, isolation will not happen. So, 3-bet with your strong hands just like you would but don't expect a lot of folding by others. Small stakes players are unable to see anything but a maniac who raises every hand. Therefore, they don't respect any of the raises even if you don't play a hand for an hour. Second, when maniacs are betting the flop, they cause others to play their hands aggressively. Therefore, a raise on the flop doesn't necessarily mean you are behind. You have to at least get to the turn and make your decision there. The action will calm down some.

chesspain

12-31-2004, 08:43 PM

A few points:

1) I might have only coldcalled PF rather than three-bet, given the presence of the coldcaller between the maniac and you.

2) This is a damn good flop, and there is no way I would be folding here.

3) If you're so scared of your hand deteriorating after the flop, then why not just call, since:

a) Anyone with anything has the odds to coldcall the flop;
b) You can see how your pot equity changes with the turn card;
c) You will likely have a chance to raise the turn in order to better protect your hand.

MoreWineII

12-31-2004, 09:39 PM

Seems like you just sort of gave up on the hand once you realized you weren't going to be able to isolate the LAG-iac.

I would at least see the turn for two more small bets and make my decision there.

Alexthegreat

12-31-2004, 09:42 PM

You should be in this hand the whole way....The pot is huge, and you have a GOOD hand.....You have more outs than you are giving yourself....Playing against a maniac leads to people overplaying their hands, and I would expect a 3-bet from the button with almost anything, including a gut-shot straight, the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif, even A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ....

This kind of action is what you live for, and while it may not be the sure thing hand you hope for against a maniac, TPGK is WAY too much hand to be folding on the flop....

private joker

12-31-2004, 10:02 PM

Everyone makes good points. The reason I didn't just call on the flop is because I wouldn't know what a raise behind me meant. It could have been anything. A 3-bet behind me usually means a very strong draw or a strong made hand. I had a good made hand but not a monster. The button was pretty tight, so the fact that he raised me both PF and on the flop narrowed his range to AA, KK, AK (of spades or at least one spade), or JJ for the set. I also didn't like SB calling 3 cold PF and on the flop because he didn't strike me as a calling station before this hand -- if he had a low set he was just stringing everyone along. But the main thing that worried me was Button's play; he hadn't shown this much strength against anyone but the LAG when they were isolated.

Still, I probably should have peeled off a turn card for 2 more SB, but what's everyone's plan if the turn card is

a) an A
b) a low spade
c) a brick
d) a K that continues to be raised and reraised
e) a red T

Hearing from you guys what I should do in these turn situations would help me make these kinds of flop calls; one of the reasons I folded was because of all the possible turn cards, the only one I could feel comfortable with was specifically the Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

SCfuji

12-31-2004, 10:24 PM

there is a chance that the button could have you beat, but i believe that the button could also be trying to isolate the maniac. whatever happens i showdown my top pair.

private joker

12-31-2004, 10:33 PM

Interesting. So regardless of the future cards you call 4BB on the turn and river and pay potentially 8BB to see if a pair of Qs with a K kicker takes down the pot? I'll try that next time.