Hand vs Schneids

[NLSoldier]

30/60 at Canterbury

Schneids has recently gotten a seat in what has gone from a pretty good to pretty bad game due to the exit of the guy whose seat he took.

I get AKo in the BB. An EP guy limps, Scratch limps in the CO, Schneids limps on the button, sb completes, and I raise. Everyone calls.

Flop comes A84r suits unimportant (At least I thought they were unimportant) I bet out, one limper calls, Schneids raises, I 3-bet, (the limper maybe folds at this point, i dont remember, maybe Schneids will) Schneids calls.

Turn is a 7. I bet, Schneids calls.

River is an 8. I bet, Schneids raises, I think hard and fold.

We talked about the hand later but he won't tell me what he had. What do you guys think of the river fold? I'll give my reasoning in a bit.

[Robk]

i think this is quite a poor fold. ray zee posted once that he's never 90% sure against a good player and i think that applies. what is your hand range here? ATs, AJs, AQ, AK, AA? if you fold AK that means you're giving up 91% of the time or something in this situation. anyone capable of working in an extra raise or two is going to terrorize you if you play like this. i've hardly played with schneids but i bet he's capable.

[bicyclekick]

Horrible horrible fold given the player who raised you. Schneids loves to play hands like that with small pocket pairs. He's a real bitch like that. While he'll get paid off more because of that, he sprays a lot of chips. :P

I would never fold to that stupid ass with your hand. I wouldn't 3 bet because I think he'll fold most hands that you have beat, but calling is the only reasonable play.

[Schneids]

You missed a couple significant details:

A) EP guy is horrible.
B) EP guy called on the turn as well. I believe he called on the river too though if you avow he didn't call on the river I'll take your word for it.
C) The turn was a 7c, which was a second club.
D) I wasn't button. In fact, I was CO-1 and the two players behind me were somewhat loose passive.
E) A little before this hand, while the game was still bad, I already limped behind Scratch in MP with AJo.

And most importantly:
F) Do you really expect that just cuz you posted the hand I'm gonna tell you what I had? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[BottlesOf]

You seriously don't talk about hands and such with your 2+2 friends?

[NLSoldier]

Ok, I knew i was sorta sketchy on the details, and if you say EP guy called the turn thats fine, but i dont think he called my river bet.

You were definately not the hijack. Maybe CO, and maybe scratch preemptively gave you the button on the river, because I swear as I was thinking things through on the river I looked at you and saw the button in front of you.

I really don't care if you tell me or not. I just want to know how horrendous my fold was

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
You seriously don't talk about hands and such with your 2+2 friends?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do plenty but to answer your Q, occasionally, no. I'd rather him stew over whether it was a good or bad fold /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[NLSoldier]

OK, So obviously I agree it was a terrible fold. I'm not really trying to defend my play, but I'll explain my thinking at the time.

Basically I was thinking that a good ace is just about the only hand I will play that way on every street. Maybe a big PP, but I kinda doubt i would fire again on the river with a PP. Schneids knows a ton about how I play, so I assume that he all but knows I have a good A, and most likely AK or maybe AQs. Since he knows a lot about how I play, I knew that he knew that I would pretty much never fold a good Ace to that river raise. So with him knowing that I won't fold a hand like AK, and him still raising, I concluded that I was beat. At the time I put him on 44, 77, 56s, A8, or maybe a hand like 8c9c that picked up a flush draw on the turn and then caught his 3 of a kind on the river.

Due to the fact that he has told me he did not have a full house, and that Scratch was sweating him and said he was surprised he did not raise the turn, I now think that 56s and 8c9c are by far his most likely hands.

[Alexthegreat]

Don't fold the river....Check-call if you are going to fold to a raise....I actually think bet-call-one-raise is a better line. For you to fold here, you have to be able to put him on 56 or an 8 very confidently.....Just because he raised the river doesn't mean he holds those hands....In fact, I think 85-90% of the time he doesn't hold those hands....I would say he has a decent ace or PP and is hoping to push you off an A, and failing that he may think he is chopping anyways....That would probably be overthinking, as would be any reason for folding....Call this raise.

[Riverman]

I'm paying off.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm paying off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trust me when I tell you this--when Dave is paying off and you're not, you made a really, really bad fold.

scrub

[Justin A]

I think it's a bad fold against a thinking player like Schneids who knows that you are capable of making some big laydowns.

Nice to see you playing 30/60. Drop me a PM and let me know how things are going.

Justin A

[worm33]

I love how everybody just says well i call cuz the pots big. go take the $60 you saved and go buy something nice.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
I love how everybody just says well i call cuz the pots big. go take the $60 you saved and go buy something nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except me who said call cause schneids plays like a bitch quite often.

[Steve Giufre]

Yeah you really need to call there IMO. Just because he should "expect" you to call isnt enough for me. Schneids is probably capable of thinking on a lot of levels. He might think that you think he should be thinking that he cant bluff or bet a worse hand here here because the pot is big and you almost have to have a big ace. Maybe he might stab at it for that reason and it should appear obvious that he cant bluff because you have shown a lot of strength. Also, if he did have say AJ or for some reason AQ he might lead at it this river since he was planning on calling a river bet annyway, and fearing maybe you pushed something and might check a worse hand behind. I dont think you win here often, but definitely often enough to call.

That being said, I really think you probably mucked a loser, cause Schneids would be busting your balls by now if you mucked the winner. Also I wouldnt let him or others you are willing to make these kind of laydowns for one bet on the river. You dont need people taking extra shots at you in these kind of situations, especially if you play online under your 2+2 handle.

Agaist a really straight forward rock I think its fine. Im not sure Scheids fits that description.