an actual poker discussion

I started playing online a year or so ago. When I first began playing I was willing to push my top pair all the way to the river and found that most folks would dump their hand to my river bet. I would only play top pair good kicker this aggressively. This worked out well for about three weeks, then all of the sudden I was facing check raises on the river. I would look at my big pair or two pair and know that I was toast. Now my aggreession has turned to paranoia. Any loud noise sends me scampering, tail tucked firmly between my legs, under the table. Over and over again, at limits up to 3-6, I would go to the river with AA unimproved, jamming preflop and post flop, only to be shown a freak straight or flush or two weak ass pair. I'm turning into a poker pussy, I'm afraid. I'm also afraid that my live game has suffered irreparable harm at the hands of my online game. Yeah, I've played poorly, clicking that damned call button when I knew I should fold. I suffer a few bad beats and my losses get compounded by poor play. I'm considering cashing out what's left of my buy in and deleting PP from my hard drive. I kicked ass at the live games I played in because I didn't chase with 2 outers and made people pay to play against my best hands. Now I watch as hand after hand I'm run down my absolute morons. Each time I'm dealt kings, an ace flops. The third flush card always seems to come on the river, and the nice pot all of my bets and raises built goes to some dimwit who conviced himself to call two cold with 8-3 of spades. Is there any strategy to combat this? I'm getting ready to throw in the towel and go back to live games and smoke and tipping and more expensive rakes. Do I sound bitter?

It sounds like you may need a break. It may be best if you quit, but I doubt that is really the best answer.

I would suggest for the next week of play, track all of the hands you played in. You can either grab the hand histories and review them or take notes as you go. I find it can be more helpful to actually take the notes. Don't bother with the hands you didn't play, but if you intentionally play in a hand, take down some notes. Note your cards, the board cards, the betting patterns, and the out come.

Most likely you will see some serious flaws. It sounds like you may already be aware of some of them.

The next step is really something of inner strength. From your post it sounds like you are doing some things wrong and you know it. My suggestion above will help you flush out the details of everything you are doing wrong. Once you know what's wrong though you have to work on controlling yourself.


Make a conscious effort to change and right your bad play. Don't focus on your loses so much. If you lose a hand, look at your notes. Did you deserve to lose it? If you played well then don't let it drag you down. You have to lose sometimes, even when you play well. If you did deserve to lose it, make an effort not to repeat the mistake.


If you find you are making several mistakes in an hour (or session) then quit! Take a break. Come back the next day or a few days later. You can't let your emotional distress from losing cloud your judgement.


Finally, I've found that live play and internet play are quite different as it sounds like you have also found. Be aware of these differences when you play. Don't let one bring down your game in the other.

"Finally, I've found that live play and internet play are quite different as it sounds like you have also found. Be aware of these differences when you play."


I'm curious about how you would characterize the differences you've seen between live and online games. Thanks.

When I say this I am mainly speaking to the limits ripdog referred to (up to 3-6). The highest I've played regularly on Paradise is 5-10 except for an experimental session with 10-20 so I can't comment on how the upper limits differ or are similar from live play.

Things I have noticed in the limits in question:


1. Players online as a general rule seem to be much more aggressive. I've noticed many people attribute this to the players being better. This is true in some cases but not all. Often times they are aggressive just to be aggressive and can be quite loose. To succeed here you need to be at least as aggressive if not more, but selectively of course such that you have an edge.


2. Looseness of the tables vs. looseness of the players. I have noticed that on Paradise you don't often see more than 3 or 4 people seeing the flop. In a B&M at these limits the average in my experience is much closer to 6-8 and that is on a 9 person table. Some people are good at one situation and not the other, a good player should be good at both and play accordingly. If you know your playing style favors one over the other you should try to improve the weaker but know it can hurt financially until you do improve. One thing to consider about the tables on Paradise is the way people react to the tighter table conditions. Even though the table as a whole is tight, what comes of this is a situation in which at least 1 or 2 players at the table loosen up their standards and aggressively play odd holdings. I'm not sure how to best characterize this, but in a B&M it's not surprising to see some piece of cheese take down the pot because they sucked out on you. It's not surprising because you are dealing with 6-8 players seeing the flop. On Paradise with much fewer people even making it to the flop you would think there would be less of this. I've seen at least as much with the difference being they are aggressively playing their piece of cheese to the max.


I learned to play poker online. I developed a very aggressive style because of this. Something odd happened when I went to the B&M card rooms. I lost some of my aggression. It was like the low limit B&M breeds passiveness. I didn't notice it as first and then something bad happened. I was doing ok in the B&M as I was still playing better than the people there, even if I wasn't as aggressive as I should have been, but my online game tanked. I was playing online less and when I played online some of my passiveness leaked into the game. I dumped a bunch of money before realizing what had gone wrong.


I started playing very aggressive again online and took the same attitude to the B&M card room. I started winning online again and I ripped up the table at the B&M 3-6.


I think the online game can help your offline game if you build aggression in both places. In general the difference between the two games is in the looseness of the games and not necessarily the looseness of the players.


Also, sometimes the situation can be easier to read in a B&M card room. When you can actually see the other players you can still perform hand reading as you can online, but you can also tell things from the people themselves.

So you suggest selective aggression, but how selective? I have recently been diminished to calling pre-flop with A-K off instead of raising because of the fact that I pump the pot up only to lose it on the river to some chump playing any two suited or cathing a 6 and a 9 to make their two pair against my top pair top kicker. Should I be raising with AQ offsuit when I'm first or second to come in? Then what? Abandon ship if the flop misses me? Will what got me there in live play work against my online foes? I play super-super tight live, but there are so many more callers live that it becomes correct for me to play A-X suited and similar hands. I find that online I have to dump them because there are only 3 or 4 players seeing the flop. I'll try keeping a notebook on my play. I know that my game is leaky--I'd be winning otherwise. I've become passive and timid. Do you think you're tighter online than live? Or do you have the same standards for both? Thanks for the reply.

This thought comes with the disclaimer that I've only taken the game seriously for six months but:


Is it possible that you've experienced an extraordinarily bad run? Not necessarily a bad run of your cards, but a bad run of others good luck.


Posters like WGB have often commented that internet swings can be huge. In my brief foray of about 500 hours online, I've had periods of 10-15 straight winning sessions followed by a similar amount of losing sessions. I also only play .5/$1 -$2/$4.


In my even briefer foray into B&M poker, I have had experiences that were very similar to Vegan's: much more passive, much easier to get a read, and much easier to succeed and avoid tilt than it is online.


Just my two cents.


Hammuh

Not raising AK before the flop is a mistake!

Yes it hurts when you get nailed by someone playing trash, but that happens, just like it happens off-line. If anything be more aggressive. Raise AK, re-raise with AK if someone raises before you.


(Again the below are for low limit. Higher limit both on and offline could be (and probably are) different.)


Here are things I do differently online than offline:

1. The games are tighter. Steal more. Offline it is rare you will be in mid/late position and it's folded to you. Online it happens all the time. If you've got some cards worth playing raise. Depending on position this doesn't have to be super primo. Mid/High suited connectors, quite a few pairs. You can even toss in a mid level 1 gap here sometimes (T8s). In a steal like this I need to have suited cards unless they are high faces. Now if your steal fails and you and one or more people see the flop, be careful. Most often you will be facing only 1 or 2 of the blinds. (If you find late people calling routinely, move or stop trying to steal as much). You should have position, so even if the flop doesn't hit perfect you might be able to pull it off. If the flop does hit rock and roll until you're given a reason not to. When you are heads up on the flop there is usually a lot of bull shit betting and raising. If you hit, don't be afraid to 3(or 4)-bet. If you didn't hit, again be careful.


2. You are right to play less Axs. I don't play this as much unless I'm in late position and there are enough callers (not usually) or often I'm playing this out of the blinds if I can see the flop cheap(or free). Axs can be used for stealing though if it's folded to you. In general stay away from your drawing hands if the table is very tight. This fluctuates of course. Just because the average flop on a table is 30% (3 players see the flop) doesn't mean it isn't sometimes 4,5,6, or more. Make sure you go in with suited connectors and Axs when there are enough people in. In general it will seem like you are playing tighter online because you don't get to play these mutli-way hands as often. Remember though online is at least twice as fast so you'll still be playing a fair number of hands per hour.


3. Don't take online bets and raises as serious. There is a lot of probing bets and raises and a lot of bull shit. Don't be stupid about it, use your head, but be prepared to raise back if you have something good. This is a major difference between low limit online and low limit offline. When you raise, people in a B&M are looking at you like "why did you raise??" Some people in the B&M of course are known for being "crazy" and raising more often, but in general raising usually means something at low limit in the B&M. If you are used to this mind set and these types of players you could find yourself folding too much on line. Again, use your brain. Don't just throw money away, but be willing to fight if you are happy with your hand.


Those are some quick tips. I hope they help.

I believe I'm experiencing a horrible run of luck this month.


For example, last night, I capped it prefop against QTh. Flop is Qx5, turn 5, river a Q. He was a crazy fellow. He had 2 outs on the river and hit against my AA.


When things like this happen, I many times go on semi-tilt. The thing to do to avoid this is, don't sit down with say 30BB and have a "goal" of reaching 50BB. Just sit down with some random stack amount (say, 46BB). This helps you avoid "looking" at your stack size to see if you're currently up or down. Don't care if you're up or down. Care if you played properly. For example, in the above hand, I believe I played it properly.


Play TIGHT. Open-raise AKo in late position, though. I don't think it's ever right to open-limp in late position with that. The thing is, if you only raise with AA/KK, they may catch on.


Also, if you raise with AKo, flop rags, and they don't fold to your flop bet, just play accordingly, and know that you'll get paid off when you DO have a high pair and flop rags after raising in position.


Anyways, I've been getting my butt kicked this month due to a few times I've semi-tilted... so... #1 advice, AVOID SEMI-TILT!


- Tony

There is no reason for this type of post on this forum.


Mason- can you institue passwords so people who want to post about internet poker strategy- are not permitted to do that here.


Thank you for your time.

Dear Vegan,

Would you please name some differences between Internet poker and live play?

I would appreciate any information that you may have.


Thanks


Sitting Bull

Vegan,


Would you be willing to share the level of success you've had with the low-limit online strategy you describe?


Thanks!


Hammuh

???


What do you think is the purpose of this forum, then?


I was very glad to see another good strategy post here. Most of the posts are related to paranoia of collusion and loggin problems. I deeply enjoy strategy posts like these, so please, people, keep posting...


Stephan

Well, like I said before I've only been playing since June. And that's when I first started playing poker. I started doing well enough in the game to make money in August.

In August I put in $100 (after losing much more than that) and played at the $.50-$1 tables. I worked my way up from there to just shy of $2000, moving up limits as I built my bank roll. At my peak I was playing a combination of $3-6 and $5-10.

I then hit a down turn of luck combined with my bad playing that leaked in from the B&M experiences (I described this in another post). This took me down several hundred dollars. I now am playing a combo of $2-4 and $3-6 working it back up. It's going well and I have no doubts that I'll be back up to $2K and beyond soon enough.

I'll need several thousand before I'll want to seriously tackle anything above $5-10.


So I haven't been playing a very long time, so in the grand scheme of things making money could have all been a lucky stroke. I don't personally think so, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

Thanks for clarifying Hammuh. /images/smile.gif

I hear ya. It gets frustrating. I had an incident last night in Stud where I rolled up 3's, got raised by a king of diamonds, I reraise, figuring him for a pair, and he called. I bet my 3's all the way to the river, he never paired up, and at the river I realize he was betting a 3-flush the whole way and caught two more diamonds while I never improved my trips. Am I an idiot? I reraised him twice (he bet 4th street and even reraised my raise with 4 diamond). If that's me, and a 3 reraises my 3 flush, I'm gone more often then not, and I sure as hell don't raise with a 4 flush. Am I wrong in thinking this guy had no business chasing me down when I announced my hand right from the start? Anyway, it does get frustrating, and it can make you wonder if you could be doing something differently. Although I seriously doubt I'd ever do anything but pour it to them when I'm rolled up in Stud.

Are you kidding?