I'm still puzzled

[FTK]

Some time ago i asked for advise on a typical tournament situation. The advise i got was not in line with what i
would expect. Because i really would like to improve my
poker game, can someone of the better/more expirienced
players point out for me why my reasoning is not correct.

The situation :

Big tournament. 25 players left. Everyone is already in the
money but the real money is for places 1-5.
I have 40.000 chips, which is about the average. blinds are 1500/3000.

I get dealed <font color="red">A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif </font> in a early position and raise to 6000.
Only the big blind calls.

Flop is <font color="black"> A /images/graemlins/spade.gif </font> <font color="red"> J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif </font>.

I go all-in. Big blind calls and i'm out of the tournament
because he shows <font color="black"> A /images/graemlins/club.gif </font> <font color="red"> J /images/graemlins/heart.gif </font> and i dont catch my flush.

The advise i got :

The mistake was making the small raise pre-flop. That allowed hands like AJ unsuited to stay in. If you would
have gone all-in pre-flop the problem would never have arised.

My problems with that answer :

1. Stealing blinds is nice but my hand is worth more than just the blinds. Going all-in preflop will only result in
hands like AA - QQ or AK calling me. Hands i would NOT like to see.
With my small raise i allow people with small pocket pairs or AJ,KQ- type of hands to call. Hands i DO like to compete against.

The first question i have : why would it be better to go all-in preflop when that would only make people lay down hands i could beat !?!

2. I was out of the tournament because my opponent flopped 2 pair and i missed my flush.

Second question : could i have done anything to prevent that ? Was it a good decision to go all-in after the flop !?!

I'm replaying this game over and over in my head but cant
think of any scenario that would have resulted in a different outcome. Maybe my immediate all-in after the flop was to optimistic, but (unless my opponent is VERY thight),
he would have gone all-in anyway sooner or later. I would have called because i would still be convinced my A with Q kicker would beat anything he could have, even if i missed my flush.

[Lloyd]

I hate mini-raises - bottom line. They make it too easy to allow Ax hands to come into the pot and do exactly this. AK and AQ is a hand that will win you a small pot and lose a big one. At this stage of the tournament, I'd be happy just picking up the blinds and not have to worry about getting out drawn. So raise 3-4XBB and go from there. In this case, you might have been called by AJ anyway but that's not the point.

With this flop, you were clearly going to get all your chips in the pot at some point. I think it was a mistake to push on the flop simply because you want to give your opponent an opportunity to bluff. This was a great flop for you (at the time), so check and see if he bets. Then you can push and take down a larger pot (unless of course your opponent has AJ and you miss your flush draw.

[tiger7210]

Your PF raise should have been to 9000 which doesn't give the BB correct odds to call a weak Ace. Your miniraise to 6000 gives him the right price to call 3000 more chips into a pot that now has ~11,500 with antes instead of 6000 to call 14,500 which is closer to 2-1 odds as a 3-1 dog.

If the BB is a loose player he's calling anyway and you're done since you're obviously not folding and neither would he.

Post flop you had no real reason to push since you hold TPGK and the nut flush draw. Pushing this flop would be correct to protect against the flush draw. The only hand you should be worried about here is AK/AJ/JJ/88. Good chance that AK or JJ reraises PF but not always. You really don't mind hands like Ax calling you drawing to 3 outs or a smaller flush draw like KQd calling. That's chance you take to double up.

Post flop- once he hit top 2 pair all the chips were eventually going in. Even against top 2 pair you're only a slight dog here. You missed your flush and he beat you with a 3 outer. That's poker.

[JaBlue]

The biggest reason that you want to raise more preflop in this situation is not to limit the field. It's because you really don't want to see a flop. You have ~ 13 big blinds. This isn't really a comfortable stack size to be taking flops with. Also, your hand isn't as good as you think it is. Unless you flop well, its going to be very hard to continue. You don't want to have these difficulties without a very workable stack.

All of this said, you almost never want to min-raise. As the others pointed out, the big blind is correct to call with any two in this spot. When they call your raise with a hand that you don't dominate is the big problem. You give them 3-1 on a 3-2 shot (say AQ vs. K10) which is really not something that you want to do.

[JaBlue]

Also, on the flop the pot contains 13.500$. You don't need to push here. After he checks, I'd probably bet something like 7.000. And plan to bet 12.000 and get it all in on the river. When you push you won't be called by hands that you aren't currently drawing against. That is, they're not going to call you with the hands like A10 offsuit or a diamond draw (which you're begging to call). You're not getting value out of your hand by pushing on this flop.

Also I'd like to mention that although I'm not saying I wouldn't go broke on this hand, by betting less you give yourself a small chance to not go broke right now.

[cferejohn]

Well, in this situation it might not have mattered. He might have called 3x the BB with AJo. However, I generally think you should raise more, especially against players who will call with dominated hands. You want someone who calls your value raise, generally, to be making a mistake to call. When you raise the minimum you are making it correct for all kinds of hands to call.

If you are in a game where a minimum raise has a really good chance of taking down the blinds (as in a bubble situation where there are lots of stacks who have 7-8x the BB), the min raise looks better, but usually you will fold quite a few more hands raising 3x the BB (or even 2.5x the BB).

As for the hand itself, I think you pretty much played it fine. I might have raised to, say 8000 preflop, but I don't think it would of made a difference.

I probably would have tried to trap him on the flop thinking my hand was good (to say nothing of the nut draw). I think I would have bet less to try to keep bad aces, or maybe pairs (or other flush draws) in. As it happens, he was going to get you all in given his hand, but even at that, you were not a big dog on the flop. Top pair/second kicker/nut flush draw is a flop you want to get all in with at this blind level.

[zaxx19]

. Stealing blinds is nice but my hand is worth more than just the blinds.

AQ is worth about the blinds...believe me.

Your raise should be to about 8500-9500 this will really place pressure on inferior hands and give you anough wiggle room to get away from AQ(assuming there are situations which you wanna do so..) in very extreme situations..say an unimaginative and rock tight person reraises you back and you are 80%+ sure he has AA KK AK or QQ id bail fast here.


THERE HAVE TO BE TIMES YOU BAIL WITH AQ EVEN WITH A "I WANNA WIN NOT JUST CASH ATTITUDE". It really sounds like you are overatting the hand here by saying you would be dissapointed in just winning blinds with a larger raise..you are holding AQ not KK AA or even QQ OR JJ- AK it is a very vulnerable hand to getting all in preflop. I wouldnt be dissaponted at all by winning the blinds and antes here.

REMEMBER IN ALOT OF SITUATIONS QJs plays alot better than AQo if it gets all in preflop.

[fnord_too]

You don't want to go all in pre flop, you have too many chips for that.

IMO you want to make the minimum raise that will usually steal the blinds with ANY hand you plan to come in with a raise for. Some people advocate varying raise size, but the blinds have already gotten too big for much variance at this point.

AQ is NOT a hand you want to go to a flop with out of position (you in fact got lucky and had position here, since only the BB called.

There is a good chance that at 7500-9000 raise would not have gotten the AJ in the BB out (so what?).

Post flop - If it went check - push, your play was horrible. You are happy to get all your chips in here. The flop hit you like a ton of bricks so you want to get a lot of money in the center, but pushing when checked to here is making a 30K+ bet at a 13.5K pot. YUK! Most worse hands will fold here (unless the BB is just awful or thinks your play is more likely to be KK or less and he has an ace.) The only hands that will typically call are hands that are ahead of you. (A really bad player may call with a draw here, but it is unlikely).

Basically, again assuming post flop went Check - Push, you are not going to get any more money out of the big blind. You want to bleed him here, not shut him out. You probably have the best hand and definitely have the best draw, don't chase the BB away.

In summation: Make a standard raise pre flop, make a standard bet post flop (for reference, my standard bet is .5-.75 times the pot, or all in if that will pot commit me.)

As it turns out, you were doomed to go broke here, but that does not change what the right play is.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
The advise i got :

The mistake was making the small raise pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very possible.

[ QUOTE ]
That allowed hands like AJ unsuited to stay in. If you would have gone all-in pre-flop the problem would never have arised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given your stack and the other info presented, allin was normally a little too much. Unless all the other stacks had about 30k or less, making it 9k would normally be best.

[ QUOTE ]
My problems with that answer :

1. Stealing blinds is nice but my hand is worth more than just the blinds. Going all-in preflop will only result in
hands like AA - QQ or AK calling me. Hands i would NOT like to see.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Allin was too big an overbet.

[ QUOTE ]
With my small raise i allow people with small pocket pairs or AJ,KQ- type of hands to call. Hands i DO like to compete against.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stealing the blinds would be no disaster given the dead money, your hand and position, so you don't want to invite too much action with such a small raise. But you also don't want to kill the action with such a big overbet as that is out of whack in terms of risk/reward. So raising to 9k is often the best compromise. Winning the significant dead money uncontested often enough whilst not inviting too much action out of position, and also give yourself room to get away when beat.

[ QUOTE ]
The first question i have : why would it be better to go all-in preflop when that would only make people lay down hands i could beat !?!

[/ QUOTE ]

It wouldn't.


[ QUOTE ]
2. I was out of the tournament because my opponent flopped 2 pair and i missed my flush.

Second question : could i have done anything to prevent that ? Was it a good decision to go all-in after the flop !?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly, you had a very strong hand. A hand where folding at any point on these ratios would be a mistake. So you're going to be prepared to play for all your chips post flop, the only question is how to go about it.

There was about 13k in the pot on the flop, and you had about 34k left. If your opponent was not short, going allin after the BB checks is likely a bad play here. Make whatever your normal bet would be, and give your opponent a chance to go broke on hands you bury- worse top pairs, lower pp's that raise you allin hoping you had AK and missed, worse flush draws, bluffs etc.

Seems you made a play on the flop that you rightly disagreed with preflop. Namely overbetting and only being called when beat.

Even against his 2 pr, you were still around even money.

[poolshark]

[ QUOTE ]

1. Stealing blinds is nice but my hand is worth more than just the blinds. Going all-in preflop will only result in
hands like AA - QQ or AK calling me. Hands i would NOT like to see.


[/ QUOTE ]

Use the same logic post flop! and you have the answer for the correct play on flop. Pushing gave you exactly what you didnt want!

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
REMEMBER IN ALOT OF SITUATIONS QJs plays alot better than AQo if it gets all in preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

really? A lot of situations?

[FTK]

Thanks everone for taking the time to reply. It helped a lot.
Keep up the good work with helping beginning players like me.

[zaxx19]

Sossman absolutely....Not most but many. The reason is the prevelance of AK as a caller. Not that many people are gonna call here with AJ or lower IMHO..unless they have you dead read on a steal...Id the prevalance of AK calling preflop here equals KK and QQ its almost a wash.... If on the other hand you think youll get called by AQ alot then its value dimishes. But i stil think AQ isnt far and away a much better hand to be all in with in situations like this. Its definitely better..just pointing out the margin isnt night and day like people think...of course Im a guy who finds it very hard to make calls with AQ unless 1) I have solid read of a steal or 2) It is very late in a tourney..or its a smallish stack pushing.

I was basically just saying AQ isnt some monster that is worth so much you dont wanna just get the blinds and antes with it IT ISNT. When I heaar the guy talk like that it sounds like QQ KK or AA here...just off base IMHO.

[Goodie54]

I would also like to hear more about these situations. I like A Q ALOT more than QJs if I'm getting it all in pre-flop. Please elaborate.

Peace

Goodie