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ZeeJustin
12-30-2004, 01:32 AM
I have never seen drjuls before, and wchen I have only played very little with, but according to Sklansky, he's the smartest poker player on the planet.

***** Hand History for Game 1365806932 *****
NL Hold'em $1000 Buy-in + $65 Entry Fee Trny:8259347 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Thursday, December 30, 00:27:24 EDT 2004
Table Step 5 #983423 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: Gigabet ( $1108 )
Seat 3: axelaxel ( $997 )
Seat 4: wchen ( $1000 )
Seat 9: andrechiu ( $1000 )
Seat 10: actionmonkey ( $1000 )
Seat 8: drjuls ( $1000 )
Seat 5: alohatofu ( $930 )
Seat 7: bob543 ( $1025 )
Seat 6: MikeStar55 ( $985 )
Seat 1: ZeeJustin ( $955 )
Trny:8259347 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ZeeJustin [ Kc Ks ]
drjuls calls [15].
andrechiu folds.
actionmonkey folds.
ZeeJustin raises [60].
Gigabet folds.
axelaxel folds.
wchen raises [175].
alohatofu folds.
MikeStar55 folds.
bob543 folds.
drjuls raises [485].
ZeeJustin folds.
wchen folds.
drjuls does not show cards.
drjuls wins 760 chips

Turk
12-30-2004, 01:38 AM
Sounds like a pretty stellar resume from someone who should know...and that you are a believer.

betgo
12-30-2004, 02:02 AM
How can you put more than half your chips in and fold? If he has aces, you almost have pot odds to make your set. I guess your opponent is brilliant if he knew you would fold to a push here.

raptor517
12-30-2004, 02:17 AM
all i see is zj giving up 60 chips. with proper players, i like this play. a raise and a reraise then another reraise usually signals some strength from someone. i have not played any of these 1k sngs, but i would imagine the play is much more correct to proper poker. being the original raiser, facing a reraise and a rereraise, folding is a very viable option. i like it, but not in anything other than a 1k. you gave up 60 chips, and can use your blind stealing skills later when it matters. dont risk your whole stack this early.

Jason Strasser
12-30-2004, 02:18 AM
I have played two of these 1k sngs... So i really have no clue about the texture of the game. There are some players who seem like regulars in it (wchen) who i have never seen at 200 sngs.

In a 200 sng i dont fold KK preflop. I suppose if this player was extremely tight you could fold it. If I was the one doing the reraise, I could have AA KK only (maybe QQ or AKs against some loose opponents). Im really not sure about this hand, but it doesnt seem criminal to fold.

Gigabet
12-30-2004, 02:33 AM
I have played with wchen quite a bit, and he is not the most brilliant player on the planet. I have trapped him for all of his chips making a "play" about 1700 times. You probably folded the best hand here, however, i don't think it is worth the risk with the blinds being so low.

betgo
12-30-2004, 09:49 AM
Sorry, I misread this and didn't realize there were three players. Still in a three-way allin you have some pot odds to make a set if you are not ahead.

I calculate you lose on average 400 chips if someone has aces and gain on average 1100 chips if no one has aces (you are in worse shape with aces against two players with pairs than agaist players with AK or AQ). So you would have to be up against aces 3/4 of the time to make calling EV-. Plus if you win the hand, you have a really good shot at 1st or 2nd, so I think this is worth the gamble.

ColdestCall
12-30-2004, 11:41 AM
Man, that's some fold. I don't know if it was right or not, but it's awfully hard to lay down KK pre-flop. My current thinking is that when I hold KK I never lay it down before the flop unless something totally insane is happening, and maybe not even then. I figure there are just too many ways I can outsmart myself, and someone is just going to have to show me AA (or give me all their chips). Maybe this will change if I ever make it to the $1000s, but I kind of doubt it. Anyway, I hope he had AA in this case!

ggbman
12-31-2004, 12:06 AM
Thats a tough fold to make, i cant comment without have anyone experience play the higher stakes SNGS, that really must be a tough laydown to make. Say Zee, what kind of BR do you need to play $1000 SNGS?

Irieguy
12-31-2004, 01:42 AM
If drjuls told you he had AK, and wchen said he would call if you called or pushed (without telling you what he had)... what would you do?

I think I would fold under the circumstances above, and it's hard to imagine you're in better shape than that.

With the blinds and opposition as they are, it's a good fold as long as drjuls doesn't know you're capable of making it.

Irieguy

flytrap
12-31-2004, 06:48 AM
If he's a reasonably good player, doesn't he have to have Aces here? He limped, and when someone limps and puts in a big re-raise, it means a big hand more often that not. Add in the fact that there were 2 raises before it got back to him, and he's likely got aces or kings. I can't remember how many times I 'knew' my opponent had Aces but couldn't lay down my KK, and they did indeed have aces after I called. Like the other responders said, and you already know, you've invested 60 chips. Great fold.

Tosh
12-31-2004, 10:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
what kind of BR do you need to play $1000 SNGS?

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends how good you are.

FakeKramer
01-13-2005, 07:55 PM
I can honestly say I am completely incapable of making a play like this. Well done (I think). /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Beavis68
01-13-2005, 08:14 PM
I folded pocket Ks once and I still regret it, Dan Harrington said in his book that folding KK preflop is a long-term loser - sure would be nice to see these cards.

I have seen WCHEN make some wild bluffs early, so it is quite possible that the limper is overbetting, but what do I know. I don't play 1k tourneys either.

Gramps
01-13-2005, 08:27 PM
That's a tough one, two players have played this hand like one would with AA (and probably not many other hands).

If drujls limped with JJ/QQ/AK with the intention of reraising, would he be smart enough to change course in the face of a raise and reraise/is he a random & reckless player? What range of hands does wchen make a reraise with? (i.e. does he adjust to the Party structure, or play as if one would with deep stacks and long blind levels and make this play with a wider range of hands).

If I believed both players wouldn't get too out of line here, it's a spot I might fold KK. If you have confidence in your game from this point on, no shame in folding this close one at this early stage of the tourney.