Why you NEVER make fun of other players!

The following documents why you never berate or make fun of another player at a table.


A player "Tuner" shows down a hand and looses against "MontesChuck" at which point the following conversation ensued.


MontesChuck said, "lol, tx"

Kreyszig said, "the moron kept check raising with no pairs lol"

Kreyszig said, "he paid you off lol"

Kreyszig said, "yes lol"

Kreyszig said, "hope he pays me off soon"


It is also worth noting that Tuner did not suck out on MontesChuck but lost the hand, therefore tilting can not be used as an excuse.


Lets follow what happened after that.


Seat 2: Tuner ($19.75 in chips)


Game #119223519 - Tuner lost $2.50 (folded)

Game #119223605 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119223715 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119223826 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119223976 - Tuner : Winner -- doesn't show cards

Game #119224052 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119224150 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119224237 - Tuner lost $0.50 (folded)

Game #119224301 - Tuner lost $0.25 (folded)

Game #119224340 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119224438 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119224511 - Tuner bet $3.50,collected $7.50,net +$4 (showed hand) [AdQc]

Game #119224573 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119224661 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119224746 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119224966 - Tuner lost $3.50 (folded)

Game #119225143 - Tuner bet $3,collected $9.75,net +$6.75 (showed hand) [AhJs]

Game #119225341 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119225457 - Tuner : Winner -- doesn't show cards

Game #119225553 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119225663 - Tuner bet $4,collected $10,net +$6 (showed hand) [6d6h]

Game #119225798 - Tuner : Winner -- doesn't show cards

Game #119225935 - Tuner lost $0.50 (folded)

Game #119226067 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119226168 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119226311 - Tuner lost $0.50 (folded)

Game #119226370 - Tuner lost $0.25 (folded)

Game #119226617 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119226751 - Tuner lost $1 (folded)

Game #119226838 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119227076 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119227231 - Tuner bet $7.50,collected $17.50,net +$10 (showed hand)[4cJc]

Game #119227405 - Tuner : Winner -- doesn't show cards

Game #119227462 - Tuner lost $2 (showed hand) [ 2d 3d ]

Game #119227637 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119227787 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119227923 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119228025 - Tuner lost $0.50 (folded)

Game #119228220 - Tuner lost $1 (folded)

Game #119228349 - Tuner lost $0.25 (folded)

Game #119228455 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119228575 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119228710 - Tuner lost $0.50 (folded)

Game #119228812 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119228903 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119228975 - Tuner : Winner -- doesn't show cards

Game #119229066 - Tuner lost $1 (folded)

Game #119229269 - Tuner lost $0.25 (folded)

Game #119229317 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)

Game #119229432 - Tuner lost $2.50 (folded)

Game #119229701 - Tuner : Winner -- doesn't show cards

Game #119229739 - Tuner lost $0.50 (folded)

Game #119229837 - Tuner didn't bet (folded)


Seat 2: Tuner ($45.75 in chips)


Tuner then left. This to me is a demonstration of players who need to satisfy their egos by berating or making fun of others, therefore causing their targets to tighten up and play better. The sad thing is those who consistantly mouth-off don't learn.


Jodder


P.S. If "Tuner" happens to see this post, then I hope you don't infer, that this post is intended to point out any poor play on your part. In fact I would like to congradulate you on taking the high road and letting your play speak on your behalf.

Well, i do agree with you on this one Jodder, however, i think that Kreyszig would be interested to see your point of view on this one. If your theory is true and i am not saying it's not, 'tuner' sat for another 52 hands after that and he saw the flop or at least made a contribution to the pot on 27 occasions!!! Indicating a flop rate of over 50%. How is it possible that over a long period like that a player can see that many flops? Of those 27 flops seen, ther were 4 winning hands, they were: AQo and AJo which are great preflop hands, followed by 66 which is not easliy a winning hand, and J4cc which he must have played out of the big blind, if not i would be seriously considering looking for tuner at any table i sit at in future, because i know that he likes to see flops and that he will contribute to my childrens education!!!


PS: he won 0.75 less with the hand J4cc then he did with both hands of AQ and AJ put together, indicating that this hand was a real suck out and that he simply got lucky!

Factor that in and then see what you think.


Best of Luck

Alcatraz

Have you not got anything better to do that look at how someone's comments have affected another player on 50-1? How many times have you bothered to do this before you found an instance of a player suffering abuse then winning?

Get a life. You were obviously losing so bad this numbed your pain. If abuse encourages people to play 50% of hands....let the sledging rain on.


Miles...So What?

Don't you have anything better to do than to attack Jodder? He is a fine poster. Your attack out of the blue speaks volumes. Are you someone who is ignorant enought to berate others' play at the table? Learn how to play and make money.

Alcatraz:


I don't agree with your numbers. You correctly noted that tuner contributed to 27 pots, however you later on made the statement, " Indicating a flop rate of over 50% ".


Of those 52 hand numbers approximately 10 of them are blinds where Tuner folded. I believe he folded 4 of 5 of his small blinds and some of his big blinds to a raise.


You also stated that of the 27 flops seen he won only 4 hands, in fact of the less then 27 flops seen he won 10 hands 4 of which were shown down, the othe 6 were uncontested.


What is not immediately obvious, (and I take responsibility for this as I didn't show any info on him before he was called a moron), is the diference in play by Tuner before he was called a moron and after he was called a moron.


In my opinion, he was playing looser, and not folding, but rather calling bets to the river.


Recognising, that the stat of him seeing 50% of the flops is wrong, I would estimate it was probably closer to 35-40 is still rather loose, consider that this was also an on-line .50/1.00 game. Seeing 35% of the flops is clearly a negative EV move in most hold'em games, in low-limit Paradise .5/1.00 games, seeing that many flops is not that unuasual, infact it is tighter than many players.


That being said, the intent of the post was not to demonstrate, how one can be transformed from a loose player to an expert player by berating, but rather to demonstrate, that comments will tighten up many players and cause them to question showing down hands.


The method most players use to measue their performance is big bets per hour, tightening up an opponent by just three or four hands per hour can clearly mean the difference between a winning player and a loosing player.


Regards,

Jodder

>>Have you not got anything better to do that look at how someone's comments have affected another player on 50-1?


I gues not but, I didn't look at how the comments affect him, what I did, was looked at how the comments affected his play. A big difference, maybe someone will explain it to you.


>>How many times have you bothered to do this before you found an instance of a player suffering abuse then winning?


This was the first time.


>>Get a life.


OK, I will do that, Hey while I'm at it maybe I'll also get me a girl, some hobbies, join a gym, take a cruise.....


>>You were obviously losing so bad this numbed your pain.


Actually I was up and then ended up booking a loss, but not in pain. I'm unsure how you could you could infer that I was in pain from that post, I thought it was rather upbeat. May I suggest Mike Caro's book of tells, it will help your people reading skills.


>>If abuse encourages people to play 50% of hands....let the sledging rain on.


He played far less then 50% of his hands, he contributed to 50% of the pots. But in Texa Hold'em there's this lil ol thing called

called the small and big blinds. Posting and folding clearly is not playing the hand.


Berating people at the tables is a negative EV play, I had hoped to document that, I guess I didn't do a good job.


Here's an analogy:


On the Internet there are forums where people post messages of a common interest. Some people choose, instead of contributing positively, to viciously and without provocation, lash out at others. This is also a negative EV play. Others may decide not to post because they don't want to be targets. Everyone looses.


You probably don't understand the analogy either.

You are totally correct in all your statements. Please accept my unreserved apology. I posted the post in a 150bb downswing fury.


Your posts are of a high quality.


P.S. "Everyone looses."

Can I just say that the word is "loses". There is a difference between "loose" and "lose". Please consult a dictionary for an explanation.


Once again I apologize. Warmest regards.


Miles...So What?

Jodder,

whilst i agree in principle with what you are saying about the player tightening up after beration, i think the stats still show how loose a player tuner is. I said he saw over 50% of flops, which is probably a little excessive, HOWEVER! if you look closely at the stats you posted, it becomes obvious that tuner posted blinds approximately 8 times, and on at least a couple of occasions he called a preflop raise out of the bb only to fold on the flop!


This is a definate indication of a weak player who is loose and will eventually lose money! Having said that, i don't think that Tuner has altered his play in any way after this verbal attack and it's simply a case of getting lucky!!


Refer to the stat that, Tuner won more from a hand of Jc4c (an obvious suck out of a hand!!!!) then he did from the hands when he actually had playable cards, those being AQo and AJo!!!!


As fro on-line 50-1 at paradise... seeing 30-40% of flops may be tighter then many other players, however, that doesn't mean that he is any better a player, only that he'll lose his stack slightly slower then a person who see's a higher percentage of flops!!!


Bottom Line

Tuner is LOOSEY GOOSEY and will probably lose it all soon, especially if he graduates to the higher limits!!!


Best of Luck,

Alcatraz

Be real,


So if not allowed to "chat" with others to influence play, whether its derogatory or not, how would you suggest we accomplish our means?


You intentionally and mistakenly concluded in your post that making someone tighter is detrimental to your long term earn. Wake the F up. It can just as easily be too loose a table to begin with, you know so loose that it becomes a virtual lottery. So should you leave? Run from 4 or 5 callers a hand. Of course not, just make some choice comments and all of a sudden the virtual lottery is transformed into an emminently beatable game. This situation is much much more likely at Paradise than the one you suggested.

I don't know about this specific instance, but it seems somewhat simplistic to believe that if you criticize someone's play they will run away and never come back. Some players will react to criticism by going on tilt, playing more hands than usual, and rebuying more often than they otherwise would have. They might start gunning for you and make mistakes. You have to look at it on a case by case basis. The other thing is that people always say "he was criticized and he left right after that". How many of those players left because they had somewhere to go? I don't remember too many times when I've actually heard someone say "you guys are mean..I'm leaving!" I'm sure it happens, but just not as often as it appears.


I really don't subscribe to the theory that we all have to be happy faced or the games will dry right up. All in all the big losers come back day after day after day no matter what anyone says to them. The very worst of them get criticized day in and day out. Did it ever occur to you that they like sucking out on so-called experts and getting them mad, even though it costs them money in the long run? I'm also convinced that some players really want to be abused deep down...they actually like it.


There will always be outcries of frustration and disbelief in poker; its part of the game and that's the way I'd like to keep it. I like playing the Jeckll and Hyde routine a little. If you can inject some emotion into your oppenent's game they are far more likely to make a mistake IMHO.

Jodder,


I agree with you 100%. You should never berate a person for his/her play. Only a total ass would do this. What do you have to gain?


If you think someone plays bad try to take advantage and beat them out of their money! I don't mind losing - but I don't want to be ridiculed or told 'how I should have played'. If you want to pay my bills you may tell me how to play!!


I do not claim to be a great player - but the money that I am gambling with is MINE!!! Please do not tell me how I should spend it!!!!


Thank you,


Jim Kuhn