3/6 JJ verses a limp-reraise

[tolbiny]

3/6 party poker-
I only have ~400 hands at this level in PT (just started on the 3/6 tip) and am in my second orbit so no reads.

I am in the sb with J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif

The cutoff and the button both limp- i raise, the BB folds, cutoff reraises, button calls i call.

Flop
K /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Your action, your plan?

[tolbiny]

n/m

[sfer]

I bet. If I'm called, I continue betting. If the CO raises, I fold the turn.

I would also have capped preflop.

[Rhone]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet. If I'm called, I continue betting. If the CO raises, I fold the turn.

I would also have capped preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Sfer,

Could you explain your comment about capping preflop? I'm just wondering whether enough opponents limp reraise with less than AA or KK to make capping preflop with JJ worthwhile.

Rhone.

[sfer]

I view CO openlimp/reraises with a maximum of suspicion.

[StellarWind]

No read at all makes this very tough.

Tight/passive players and some other tight players almost always produce AA (sometimes KK) when they open-backraise from CO/BN/SB.

Loose/passive players almost never backraise but usually also have AA/KK on those rare occasions.

Many LAGs never limp here. But many others will limp trash and then improvise a reraise.

You are essentially reduced to betting money on your judgement of the type of player you are facing. I think it's self-destructive to play aggressively without a read. Don't pay extra against AA and let a LAG bluff his money off. He's sure to follow up on his preflop 3-bet.

The question is whether you should just checkfold. To win you need three things to happen:

1. Avoid AA/KK.

2. Not have either one of them get lucky and flop a king.

3. Finish ahead despite the likelihood that they have a lot of outs while you have 0-2.

A reasonable idea would be to check and call down if Button folds but fold if Button raises or calls. Obviously a read on Button would help here.

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
I view CO openlimp/reraises with a maximum of suspicion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean you don't give them any credit? Stellarwind says they have AA/KK why do you continue to bet if they almost always have AA/KK?

[ QUOTE ]
I bet. If I'm called, I continue betting. If the CO raises, I fold the turn.

I would also have capped preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean if you are raised on the flop you call and check fold the turn? What do you do if raised on the turn?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Stellarwind says they have AA/KK why do you continue to bet if they almost always have AA/KK?


[/ QUOTE ]

Not many players will openlimp from the CO with AA/KK. It doesn't make sense. Your openraise will look stealish and that alone will generate action.

[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean if you are raised on the flop you call and check fold the turn? What do you do if raised on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Fold.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Stellarwind says they have AA/KK why do you continue to bet if they almost always have AA/KK?

[/ QUOTE ]
StellarWind says you did not read his first post carefully.

Some player types have AA/KK. Other player types have trash. This would be an easy hand to play with a basic read. Without a read it is a guessing game.

[holdemfan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
I view CO openlimp/reraises with a maximum of suspicion.





[/ QUOTE ]Does this mean you don't give them any credit?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Im CO or B and SB or BB raises with only the 3 of us, Yes. Its only 1.5sb for him to maybe win the pot here or on the flop with representation. Being CO and B with position they may be fighting back saying dont try to mess with me unless you have something. Of course one of them could have a real holding and just limped because the field was already limited.
You definately bet here and see where it goes.

[k_squared]

[ QUOTE ]
If Im CO or B and SB or BB raises with only the 3 of us, Yes. Its only 1.5sb for him to maybe win the pot here or on the flop with representation. Being CO and B with position they may be fighting back saying dont try to mess with me unless you have something. Of course one of them could have a real holding and just limped because the field was already limited.
You definately bet here and see where it goes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that a good player might make this move of trying to raise and in so doing limit the field. Yet, the first question remains... is this a good player!!! If he is not a good player if he is a tight passive player then this raise is out of character and you should proceed carefully. Like anything in poker it makes no sense to "definately bet here and see where it goes" UNLESS you have a read of the situation. With no read I might play this hand soft allowing the player to pay you off if he is a fish, and not allowing a shark to get in a few more raises.

In the end, it comes down to having a sense of the player AND then making a decision. Without a sense of the type of player (say first few hands) flip a coin to mix up your play!

-k_squared

[sfer]

The pot is 10 SBs. Giving a bare A or Q a free turn card is a disaster.

[River2Pair]

[ QUOTE ]
Some player types have AA/KK. Other player types have trash.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen AQo a few times in this situation. I don't think its a bluff move as much as it is that they watch WPT and think that AQ is a great hand in a raised pot. Then they're stunned when the dealer pushes you the pot after a Qxx flop.

Thank you Vince Van Patten!

[sfer]

I also want to note that part of the reason I would cap here is for metagame considerations, which I basically never do online. But this is a spot where I want to make clear that my capping range gets very wide with limp/reraise/pot-building nonsense.

EDIT: Also, JJ is like a monster here and my taint is insane.

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
metagame considerations

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't in SSH or in planet poker's poker dictionary. What is this?

[River2Pair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
metagame considerations

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't in SSH or in planet poker's poker dictionary. What is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its similar to table image. Making decisions based not only on the EV of this particular hand, but also on your overall strategy for the session.

As sfer astutely pointed out, rarely useful playing online.

Read Tommy Angelo's posts in Mid-High for more in depth coverage of the topic.

[bisonbison]

the metagame is the larger context within which all poker is played.

A batter and pitcher in baseball have a metagame. John Doe knows that Bob Smith likes to throw the fastball inside on 1-2 counts against left-handed hitters, but Bob knows that John knows this, and knows that last time they faced off (eight months ago), John went down swinging on a curveball. Now, of course, John remembers striking out too, but he's been hitting curveballs well this season.

What pitch should Bob throw?

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
I view CO openlimp/reraises with a maximum of suspicion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I view CO openlimp/reraises with a maximum of caution.

Look, it obviously really helps to know your oppnents here (duh, Colgin) but I think you will be very often shown AA/KK. Yes, an aggressive CO may see the SB raise as an attempt to knock out the BB and take control of the hand against CO's weak open limp. Such a CO may then push back by re-raising. Without further information, however, I am assuming that such a thinking aggressive player is not openlimping from the CO in the first place. That kid of player would be raising. I have seen many times players open limp from the CO or button with AA or KK, presumably out of fear of just winning the blinds.