Commission Coach Hand # 13 TPTK hand from CO

[O Doyle Rules]

Hi all,

My transition to this 15/30 game has not been an easy for one for me. December so far has went much better than my terrible start in November. (This is not saying a whole lot since I dropped 224 BBs in November)

I am winning money in all positions exept the blinds for December. However, I am only winning .02 BB per hand from the CO, far less than all the other late positions. Here is a series of hands from the CO, let me know what you think. All replies are greatly appreciated. I did not give my coach the heads up I was posting these, but I am hoping he will chime in as well.

My opponent in this hand is a definite LAG.


Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (9 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has 3s 6s (two pair, sixes and threes).
Hero has As Kd (one pair, aces).
Outcome: SB wins 13 BB. </font>

[Avatar]

Looks good.

O Doyle, try to leave your results out of the original post. It may subtley bias some of the responses.

[TStoneMBD]

player descriptions are important in hands like this. if the sb is a solid player(clearly he isnt after calling 2 cold in bb with 36) and isnt capable of capping it on the flop without a hand stronger than AK or a flush draw, you should just fold on the turn. the best you could hope for in this situation is AQ. after the river comes, clearly you are behind with 4 hearts out there. the sb would have had to of capped the flop and bet the turn and river with a pair of aces, bad kicker with no heart. not many players are going to do that.

[amulet]

this is a tough one. you want the monkey calling with 63. however, he is telling you he has top pair beat before the river. on my good days i know i am beat here (depending on the opponent) and fold, on my bad days i pay him off.

[JasonP530]

Online, you should probably pay him off. In person, you may be able to fold to a river bet.

[O'Doyle's Coach]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a tough one. you want the monkey calling with 63. however, he is telling you he has top pair beat before the river. on my good days i know i am beat here (depending on the opponent) and fold, on my bad days i pay him off.

[/ QUOTE ]

And on your horrible days you fold the winner.
I play it exactly the same way. Put him on two pair or a set, but pay him off happily - its even easier given he's a LAG.

[Turning Stone Pro]

You are beat on the river exactly 100% of the time. Muck it and play another hand.

TSP

[Submarine123]

Is this something particular to mid limits that you should be willing to pay off hands that you feel have you beat?
(Unless I am missing something this play is seriously against the fundamental TOP isn't it?)

I'm surprised to see a few comments that this is a good play, tough call, or "gladly" pay him off putting him on two pair or a set. Let alone the 4 to a flush on the board.

I'm not trying to be funny either I hope to learn somethinghere and am at a total loss understanding this one. There must be situational reasons for this type of play at these limits.

What's the deal?

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this something particular to mid limits that you should be willing to pay off hands that you feel have you beat?
(Unless I am missing something this play is seriously against the fundamental TOP isn't it?)

I'm surprised to see a few comments that this is a good play, tough call, or "gladly" pay him off putting him on two pair or a set. Let alone the 4 to a flush on the board.

I'm not trying to be funny either I hope to learn somethinghere and am at a total loss understanding this one. There must be situational reasons for this type of play at these limits.

What's the deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

The deal is that LAGs will have a weaker ace with no heart (or even worse) enough of the time to make the call correct.

LAGs seem to be in some sort of contest to see who can outLAG all of the other LAGs. It's getting pretty serious these days, this LAGfest, especially online.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
You are beat on the river exactly 100% of the time. Muck it and play another hand. TSP

[/ QUOTE ]

When you typed in "exactly 100% of the time," did you forget to utilize the sarcasm/hyperbole key, or do you really believe that an online LAG has the best hand here every single time?

[AviD]

By exactly 100%, that would mean every hand beats you.
I think you are exactly 100% wrong, and wrong enough where vs a LAG/maniac *cough* someone who 3-bets 36s preflop *cough*, this river call could be exactly 100% correct SOME of the time.

[Turning Stone Pro]

I don't know what a LAG is (i'm kind of a PAG myself, like Tommy), but yes, the opponent with this board and playing the hand in this manner has TPTK beat 100% of the time.

TSP

[stoxtrader]

I really like to bluff bet the river on a 4 flush board.

[TStoneMBD]

tstonepro i think you need to tone down your firm standpoints a little bit. i agree with you that you should fold to the river bet, but clearly you are not beat 100% of the time. are you telling me that if there were 99BBs in the pot and you had to call 1BB you would fold? certainly not. im just merely pointing out that your statements are a little too as a matter of factual, leaving you no room to change your standpoint at a later time. people ridicule you mainly for this reason. in the future you may think this fold is a call, and therefore maybe youd be better off simply offering your respected opinion rather than your stubborn certainties.

[Turning Stone Pro]

I cant recall being in a pot with 99 BBs in it, so I really cant address that particular scenario. I guess if there were 99 BBs in the pot, I would raise, for the miniscule chance that he would hit the wrong button on accident when calling.

My point is this: in this scenario, I would muck every single time. This is based on my experience playing limit hold em for the better part of 20 years.

I hate to sound like Angelo, but this is just the way I play this hand in this spot. I'm not saying I am 100% correct, but I play the way I play. In this spot, I simply would never call.

As to whether other 2+2ers respect my game, I don't worry too much about that.

TSP

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
You are beat on the river exactly 100% of the time. Muck it and play another hand.

TSP

[/ QUOTE ]

Nonsense. A LAG could play any ace like this.

[O Doyle Rules]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are beat on the river exactly 100% of the time. Muck it and play another hand.

TSP

[/ QUOTE ]

Nonsense. A LAG could play any ace like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the size of the pot, I think, if I did the math right, I would have to be over 91% certain that I am beat here to make a fold correct. I could actually put him on alot of different hands that this LAG and other LAGS at party will play like this. Besides any Ace, how about 45o, any 6, any 3, any card that gives him a gut shot draw, etc.

As far as getting a better coach, I am 98% certain I made the right choice when I selected the person I did to coach me. (I don't think anyone can be 100% certain in things relating to poker as well as most other things in life.)

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]

I hate to sound like Angelo


[/ QUOTE ]
Don't worry about it, there's no danger of that.

[William Jockusch]

Correctly played throughout.

[William Jockusch]

Any reason the SB couldn't have the following:

45?
AQ?
AK also?

And if he does have one of those holdings, is there any particular reason his hand has to have a heart in it?

William

[ActionBob]

[ QUOTE ]

Don't worry about it, there's no danger of that

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to figure out whether or not that is a complement.

-ActionBob

[DougL]

1/2 of all the Ax hands the LAG holds have the Ah. You ask, "is there any particular reason his hand has to have a heart in it?". There is only one non-heart ace left in the deck. Does that play in to your figuring of "I have to call because of the big pot"?

[William Jockusch]

My point is that anybody claiming you are definitely beat here is off base. Sure they might have the ace of hearts. Then again, they might not.

I think you call the river based on pot size, yes.

[David Steele]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I am only winning .02 BB per hand from the CO

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you have an enormous amount of hands, the data for these positions will have a lot of variance.

I thought I had a problem myself that way but when I looked closely at the data I realized that just the frequency of AA and KK holding up accounted for so much of the possible difference that I relaxed. After many more hands the data was a lot more reasonable. Of course it is still possible there is a problem.

One other small factor is that PT does not account for cut-off posted blinds it seems ( someone correct me if I am wrong ).


D.