do you use odds for 1 card to come or 2?

[oreogod]

Quick question to the experienced, dealing with outs and odds to hit your card:

Do you memorize both the numbers for both two cards to come and one card to come (ex. 9 outs, two cards its 1.9:1, one card 4.1:1) -- when in the middle of a hand do you use both odds or just keep it simple and think of the one card to come odds.

Also, which book or method has the simplest way to work out the odds in your head (until I memorize them) -- thanks in advance.

[smoore]

First, the easy answer, Holdem wizardry:
1) Count your outs
2) Multiply by two to figure % of hitting one of the outs on the next card
3) Convert to ratio format to compare to pot odds

example: AKo, board of undercards, no straight all rainbow. You have 6 outs that you are convinced will win you the pot. You have a 12% chance to hit one of your 6 outs, or about 8:1 odds. As long as there are 8 bets out there, you call for one bet. If it's raised and there's only 8 bets out there you no longer have odds to catch ON THE TURN.

So, for two cards to come, you double that. Outs times 4 or 24% to get one of your 6 outs BY THE RIVER.

Now for the hard answer, "which one do you use?":

It depends. Now you need to learn how to manipulate the odds. If you can get a free card on the turn by raising now, you're investing one big bet to get that free card (if you want it).

SSH (Small Stakes Holdem, Miller), available on this site explains all of that.

edit: whoops, had the odds wrong in my example, fixed.

[Reef]

for ex, 9 outs. Memorize 4:1. All we care about is the next card (I assume limit poker where you're not moving all in) Pot needs to be $4 to call a $1 bet. Find an odds chart by doing a google search.

[Schizo]

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=13913

[jackaaron]

Thanks for the link. But, that chart doesn't show what your pot odds should be does it? For example, if you have 8 outs, you should be getting at least 5 to 1 pot odds I think right?

[oreogod]

Dont know if this anyone is intrested, but here is further info on NL odds that I was seeking -- came from a PM i sent to Reef, hope he doesnt mind. If anyone out there has something to add to this, please do. Thanks.

"for ex, 9 outs. Memorize 4:1. All we care about is the next card (I assume limit poker where you're not moving all in) Pot needs to be $4 to call a $1 bet. Find an odds chart by doing a google search."

Question is, Would this be different if it was NO LIMIT, or pretty much the same?
------------------------------------------------------

No limit has a VERY different pot odds scheme because of a concept called implied odds, or "The same as pot odds except it takes into account making bets in the future. Thus, you may call a bet at the flop, but have implied odds of making bigger bets on later rounds if you hit your draw. So, if you have AK of diamonds and the flop comes two diamonds, your implied odds are what you have to call at the flop compared to how large the pot will be at the end of the hand."

For example, in NL, it's ok to call a half pot bet on the flop with only a flush draw. You only have 2:1 odds on this call compared to the limit holdem required odds of 4:1. However, if you do make your flush on later streets, the potential to collect larger bets is available (since it is NL and the bet sizes can be bigger). Thus justifying your original call, with seeming incorrect odds.

~Reef"

Many thanks oh great Sages -- I consider myself a good instinct player but I know my game could improve ten-fold if I applied the numbers to it. I think the one thing that I need to improve on is Implied odds (Im still building a bankroll on small stakes NL tables -- I enjoy the freedom to bet how I like much much more (good or bad), like riding naked down a water slide...but at a poker table.

Again, thanks for the help.

[AKQJ10]

Implied odds are still important in limit poker -- they're just much less important with respect to pot odds because of the obvious lower ratio involved.

[cgwahl]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the link. But, that chart doesn't show what your pot odds should be does it? For example, if you have 8 outs, you should be getting at least 5 to 1 pot odds I think right?

[/ QUOTE ]


Way I do it is just multiply your odds by your bet. Say its 4.22:1 to get my flush draw on the turn...then in a 1/2 game I need $4 (or just up it to $5)...on river (4.11), it'd be $8 (or $9).

However, lets say on flop I need to pay $2 to see the turn for the flush draw...4.22 * 2 = $9. River, 4.11 * $4 = $17


For me its just a little quicker to multiply what I need than divide it. However, another thing I did do is create a spreadsheet with the same pot odds for turn/river, turn and just river and then put up top what game it is...one box would have 1 the other 2 (or since I'm playing such low limit games, .02 and .04).

If you want the spreadsheet just send me a pm with your email in it (is a MS Works spreadsheet). Its simplistic, but nice to use when playing online.