Pot Odds...At that moment in time?

[Dave H.]

Are pot odds considered only for that moment in time that it is up to me to decide whether a call is profitable?

Example:

I'm in an early position, it's one bet to me and I've determined that I need pot odds of 6:1 to make a profitable call.

At that point, there are only 4 bets in the pot, but there are 5 others yet to act, and it's a certainty that at least two of them will call.

From a pot odds perspective, is the call profitable, or is it not due to the fact that there were not enough bets in the pot AT THE TIME I HAD TO MAKE MY DECISION?

[HitmanHoldem]

I believe you are mixing up pot odds and implied odds. When it is your time to act, if you are considering pot odds, you only consider what has already been placed into the pot. If you would also like to consider what could possibly go into the pot, then you are referring to something called implied odds.

Implied odds refer to pot odds that at the moment do not exist. If you would like to include implied odds in your calculation of whether or not you are making the correct call, you would be including the assumed results of the actions of players who will act after you.

For instance, if you need 4:1 odds for your call to be a good decision, it is possible to still make the call before the odds are 4:1 assuming that you will still win bets from your opponents on the remaining cards to fall.

[Dave H.]

No, I don't think so. Implied odds would need to take into account much more than a single betting round I would think. Whenever I've seen implied odds discussed, it was with reference to estimates of all remaining bets for the remainder of the hand. I am only speaking of one street here.

Anyway, I still need more clarification please.

[EStreet20]

In the case you describe, I only decide based on the money already in the pot, especially because along with the assumption of two more callers, one must also realize the possibility of a raise. You are in essence discussing implied odds in your post. While you are not taking into account actions on later streets, you are "implying" what odds you will have after all betting pre-flop is finished.

[MercTec]

If you are certain that at least 2 players will call, then you are getting correct odds...you do have to take implied odds into consideration however...especially if you're drawing to the nuts. 4-1 may be enough if you are drawing to a 6-1 shot if you can pick up those extra 2 bets in the rest of the hand.

However, the problem with you're thinking in the initial question is that you neglect the possibilty that one of the remaining players to act will raise...which changes things quite a bit.

[Dave H.]

Yes, I DO understand that I should take implied odds into consideration and that a raise could change things drastically. However, a raise would screw things up even if the pot odds were present at exactly the moment I bet.

My confusion lies with whether I should consider future bets IN THAT BETTING ROUND when I am making a "call" decision.

I seem to be faced with this often, and I can't seem to find the answer in SSH or TOP or HEFAP...to clarify:

The flop has just fallen. I'm in early position, it's one bet to me, and I need 6:1 pot odds but only have 4:1 AT THAT MOMENT. However, I am certain that there will be at least two more callers IN THAT BETTING ROUND, so can I say, then, that my pot odds are at least 6:1 based on the fact that I know there will be at least those other two callers, or do I need to say "NO, the pot odds are not there" because the others have not yet acted.

[MercTec]

There are several factors you need to take into consideration. The preflop betting, the texture of the flop, how clean are your outs...there is no cut and dry in this situation. Actually if you're in early position looking to continue with a drawing/overcard hand, it may be best to raise in this situation rahter than call thinking about the pot odds. I hate to be so broad but this reall is a "it depends" question.

Generally, in a perfect world, if you are drawing to a CLEAN 6-1 shot and you KNOW that 2 players are going to CALL....then yes, you can consider that in your decision IMO.

[emonrad87]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop has just fallen. I'm in early position, it's one bet to me, and I need 6:1 pot odds but only have 4:1 AT THAT MOMENT. However, I am certain that there will be at least two more callers IN THAT BETTING ROUND, so can I say, then, that my pot odds are at least 6:1 based on the fact that I know there will be at least those other two callers, or do I need to say "NO, the pot odds are not there" because the others have not yet acted.

[/ QUOTE ]


No, you do not have pot odds there. The pot is not giving you 6-1. Pot odds are only good for what EXACTLY is in the pot when you act.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
There are several factors you need to take into consideration. The preflop betting, the texture of the flop, how clean are your outs...there is no cut and dry in this situation. Actually if you're in early position looking to continue with a drawing/overcard hand, it may be best to raise in this situation rahter than call thinking about the pot odds. I hate to be so broad but this reall is a "it depends" question.

Generally, in a perfect world, if you are drawing to a CLEAN 6-1 shot and you KNOW that 2 players are going to CALL....then yes, you can consider that in your decision IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Dave,

MercTec's point here is a good one. It sounds like you are concentrating too much on the technical definitions of pot odds versus implied odds. Typically, the term "pot odds" is reserved to describe money that is already in the pot. "Implied odds" describes odds calculated based on money you assume will be put into the pot, on the current street or any remaining ones.

But I guess I would say, Who cares what you call it? The important thing is to understand the concepts these terms describe and, more importantly, how to use them correctly.

Calculating implied odds is an art, rather than a science, and requires good reads of your opponents. Also, as you point out, even pot odds are an inexact science when you are not closing the action, as you must factor in the possibility of a raise behind you.

As MercTec suggests, it is better to concentrate on your complete strategy, rather than focusing exclusively on your pot odds or implied odds. A good poker player takes many factors into account -- pot odds, implied odds, flop texture, opponent reads, among many others -- and makes the best decision given all this information. The size of the pot is always important, but sometimes (when you raise to clean up outs or take off a free card) you make strategic decisions whose "implied odds" come not from the money you expect to be put into the pot, but from the possibility of knocking out better hands or saving you money on a later street.

HTH,
gm