Is this typical 20/40 play? ...sign me up

Game #117289275 - $20/$40 Hold'em - 2001/10/10-16:47:05 (CST)

Table "Pavuvu" (real money) -- Seat 3 is the button

Seat 1: Michigan21 ($800 in chips)

Seat 3: scottyb ($2,167 in chips)

Seat 4: akselmania ($750 in chips)

Seat 5: gokalpart ($821 in chips)

Seat 6: TheLister ($1,397 in chips)

Seat 7: zxhzshsrm ($7,820.50 in chips)

Seat 8: Angelina ($1,573.50 in chips)

Seat 9: Betong ($691 in chips)

Seat 10: turfman ($1,132 in chips)

akselmania: Post Small Blind ($10)

gokalpart: Post Big Blind ($20)

Michigan21: Post ($20)

Dealing...

TheLister: Fold

zxhzshsrm: Fold

Angelina: Raise ($40)

Betong : Fold

turfman : Fold

Michigan21: Fold

scottyb : Fold

akselmania: Fold

gokalpart: Call ($20)

*** FLOP *** : [ Td 6d Kc ]

gokalpart: Check

Angelina: Bet ($20)

gokalpart: Raise ($40)

Angelina: Call ($20)

*** TURN *** : [ Td 6d Kc ] [ 3s ]

gokalpart: Bet ($40)

Angelina: Raise ($80)

gokalpart: Call ($40)

*** RIVER *** : [ Td 6d Kc 3s ] [ 2d ]

gokalpart: Check

Angelina: Check

*** SUMMARY ***

Pot: $347 | Rake: $3

Board: [ Td 6d Kc 3s 2d ]

Michigan21 lost $20 (folded)

Kingfisher didn't bet

scottyb didn't bet (folded)

akselmania lost $10 (folded)

gokalpart bet $160, collected $347, net +$187 (showed hand) [ 4d Ks ] (a pair of kings)

TheLister didn't bet (folded)

zxhzshsrm didn't bet (folded)

Angelina lost $160 [ Ts Ah ] (a pair of tens)

Betong didn't bet (folded)

turfman didn't bet (folded)

Yes this is a standard play of a hand. Your point is.....


URMeowed


=^._.^=

Was never trying to make a POINT. Was asking a QUESTION. Is this typical play? To raise with A 10 off, call a raise with K 4 off, etc. etc.

Can you say "dead money"?


I knew you could.


Angelina Fekali

Studying People Inc.

Ljubljana, Slovenia

http://www.fekali.com/angelina

Joe-


No offense-- but if you want to be signed up because of that hand-- you don't want to be signed up.

joe,

play 20/40 on PP if you hate money. First they collude !!!

most sane folks play only heads up at that level. If they don't

collude I would say the house can have "players" robots to beat

you. Long threads are abundant. Ed Hill (a known money payer)

after losing - and losing dirty !!!!! (believe me some folks know

if they play bad and lose *or* they get cheated !!!!!)

got a team of programmers to go down to Costa Rica to check them

out. First say ok, later PP rebuked - they are a Costa Rican maffia there and as dirty as some of the idiot pro PP players are here.

I'm up about 3 grand in the PP 20/40 games(15/30 too, a little 10/20 Stud8). Over the course of a few months playing some on the weekends. If people collude, they do it poorly. I have yet to see what I'd consider colluding on line. Sure I was pissed when a guy called my bet on the flop w/ two undercards and made a runner-runner flush to beat my trips, but he thought I didn't have a pair, then caught his flush draw on the turn, and made it. A reasonable fish could make that play. I know most of my tough beats can be linked to flawed but I guess reasonable thinking by my opponents.


If you lose on PP, you can blame PP or you can figure out how to play. Online poker is a gold-mine.

No in a "typical" hand Angelina would either


1) Turn over Ace/King...or


2) River an ace or ten and collect another bet

Do you really want to play in a game like that?


What the hell is "dead money"?

What is she studying, how to be a loser?

I believe Mason stated in a post a while ago (although I'm not entirely sure), that there's less value in open-raising from mid/late position with hands like A9o if a late position has posted, since it's more likely you get called. I dont know how the more times you get called and the more likely you're not in last position ways up to the fact that there's more dead money in the pot, but I would like to hear your opinion on this one.


Regards

Please explain how an extra $20 posted pre flop gives you the odds to raise with A 10 offsuit, then call a raise when the K flops? Seems like you are drawing very thin. I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm really trying understand and learn from professional players.

-- Please explain how an extra $20 posted pre flop gives you the odds to raise with A 10 offsuit.--


Much smarter people than I have long ago discovered that ATo is plenty enough to

attack the blinds 4 off the button (see http://www.posev.com/poker/holdem/strategy/preflop-abdul.html ), double so with a late post. If stealing the blinds is a coup for ATo, stealing another bet along with the blinds is a major victory. Not that it happens often.


My postflop play in this particular hand OTOH was suitable against this particular opponent, in my judgement.


Sign up.


Angelina Fekali

Studying People Inc.

Ljubljana, Slovenia

http://www.fekali.com/angelina

1. Angelina raises A10o early (ie. bets the pot). Not a bad play if done sparingly and under the right game conditions. Perhaps the others were playing far too tight, or calling raises far too loosely. You have to mix up your raises a little anyhow, so without having been watching the game, I wouldn't criticize this raise. I would raise here 5% of the time.


2. Gokalpart defends the blind with K4o. Well, not a great play. Best to just drop here. He was however getting instant odds of 4.5:1, and from the little I've watched Angelina play, I'd say she does have a tendancy to overplay some of her hands and get a bit stubborn, so I'm sure this was going through Gokalpart's mind. He figured his implied odds were good. Or maybe he's just a fish. Hard to say from one hand. He was giving away a couple of dollars by calling, but sometimes the odd call like this will send out the message, "don't bother trying to steal my blinds", and will recoup you those few dollars in the long run. So I'd say bad call, but not a capital offense.


3. Both hit a pair on the flop. Gokal checkraises. Angelina calls. Pretty standard play here. Angelina might have considered reraising here in case he was checkraising a 6, a 10, or a flush draw, or to get him to drop a weak King, and to induce a check by him on the turn. But without knowing what had gone on before or what she may have known about him, I can't really quarrel with the call.


4. Angelina raises the turn when a blank hits. I don't really like this raise myself; I'd rather put it in as a reraise on the flop and take control of the hand early. What if he 3 bets; do you fold now? It's too late to get him to drop a King, he's gonna call you down. He may drop a 10 or a 6 to this raise, but he's not getting the odds to draw for a 5 outer, so you don't want that. On the other hand, maybe he has a smaller pair and a flush draw, or just a flush draw, or an open ended straight, in which case a raise is warranted. Again, it's hard to say without knowing anything about the other player. We weren't there. She had a lot more information than I have just looking at this one hand. She may have played many many hours with this guy and have had a pretty good idea by now what he was holding. She can't very well fold, because there's probably a 50% chance she has the best hand. Her raise did induce a check on the river (thankfully), so maybe she knew something we didn't.


5. Check/check when the diamonds hit the river. I don't see too many other options here. He can't very well bluff: he has to put her on a probable minimum of AK and a call. She can't very well bet: good chance he has a flush or at least a King, since he did call the raise on the turn.


Overall, I don't think either of these players played this hand as badly as you make it out to be in your title.

I think this hand is a demonstration of the essence of poker, and books could be written on it, alone.


Angelina, for whatever prior game reasons, saw this as a steal or semi-bluff situation, and open raised with a reasonable ATo, seeing that she was getting good odds of 5/4. She probably thought she was fairly likely to win then and there at that point. And if she didn't, she would be favourite against most hands except AA,KK,QQ,JJ,or AKs.


Anyone else coming into the pot risked a raise behind, and a reraise from Angelina. Whatever happened, they would be risking at least seven small bets just to call her down to the end. Much easier to fold without the very good hands, especially considering Angelina's table-image.


From Big Blind's point of view, although K4o was a dubious call at best: he could not be raised; he thought that Angelina was perhaps steal-raising; he was against only one opponent; and he was getting 9/2 odds.


After BB paired on the flop, he "tested" Angelina with a raise. If Angelina had reraised here, he might have folded to what he might have thought was an AA, KK, AK, or a KQs.


When Angelina raised on the turn, BB, correctly, read it as a last-ditch attempt to win the pot, albeit that she had second pair with top kicker. Which is why she had to call his raise.


A bet by either party on the river would have been called down, and now neither party was confident they had the best hand.


Of course, it could be just a typical hand.

The first thing to note is that Ang. ain't folding second pair best kicker heads-up under any circumstances -- well there might be a few, but not many. Given this, the raise on the flop could easily have come from a draw, or a weak king (bingo!) that might fold to a check-raise on the turn. The way it plays out, Ang. pays the same amount versus a better hand, but makes any draw pay through the nose on the turn.


- Andrew

"The way it plays out, Ang. pays the same amount versus a better hand, but makes any draw pay through the nose on the turn"

With that flop isn't she the one drawing and ended up paying off?

Of course she is (now that you know what cards each held) but the point is she isn't going to fold anyway. As Andrew said, with second pair and best kicker in a heads up situation you are going to call most opponents. So she doesn't lose any more money than she would have otherwise and if an A or 10 hits on the river she makes more money and if BB is on a draw she make s more money than she would have otherwise.

Today:


-----------------------------------------------------

Game #117778030 - $20/$40 Hold'em - 2001/10/12-12:10:54 (CST)

Table "Papenoo" (real money) -- Seat 7 is the button

Seat 1: MadMan ($1,535 in chips)

Seat 2: Angelina ($1,580 in chips)

Seat 3: Hobie ($1,085 in chips)

Seat 4: srennug ($1,177 in chips)

Seat 5: R90/6 ($1,288 in chips)

Seat 6: Randy River ($2,854 in chips)

Seat 7: realdesire ($1,294 in chips)

Seat 8: LastChance ($1,081 in chips)

Seat 10: duchesse ($503 in chips)

LastChance: Post Small Blind ($10)

duchesse: Post Big Blind ($20)

Dealing...

Dealt to Angelina [ 9s ]

Dealt to Angelina [ 9d ]

MadMan : Fold

Angelina: Raise ($40)

Hobie : Fold

srennug : Fold

R90/6 : Fold

Randy River: Fold

realdesire: Fold

LastChance: Fold

duchesse: Call ($20)

*** FLOP *** : [ 7c Qs 8s ]

duchesse: Check

Angelina: Bet ($20)

duchesse: Raise ($40)

Angelina: Call ($20)

*** TURN *** : [ 7c Qs 8s ] [ Ac ]

duchesse: Bet ($40)

Angelina: Raise ($80)

duchesse: Call ($40)

*** RIVER *** : [ 7c Qs 8s Ac ] [ Ad ]

duchesse: Check

Angelina: Check

*** SUMMARY ***

Pot: $327 | Rake: $3

Board: [ 7c Qs 8s Ac Ad ]

MadMan didn't bet (folded)

Angelina bet $160, collected $327, net +$167 (showed hand) [ 9s 9d ] (two pair, aces and nines)

Hobie didn't bet (folded)

srennug didn't bet (folded)

R90/6 didn't bet (folded)

Randy River didn't bet (folded)

realdesire didn't bet (folded)

LastChance lost $10 (folded)

Grifter didn't bet

duchesse lost $160 (showed hand) [ 9h 8h ] (two pair, aces and eights)


Angelina Fekali

Studying People Inc.

Ljubljana, Slovenia

http://www.fekali.com/angelina

I'm more and more understanding what Tommy Angelo meant by the value of often not having to show a loser when in position.


Now this play can look as an very impressive play (when you win), where otherwise you could have mucked without anyone knowing how player depended/tricky play you made. It's a true value IMO only have to show this kind of play when it worked. It moves you up in the hierachy of fear (another Tommyrism :-)


Regards

I think preflop and on the flop Duchesse played correctly. However, I think duchesse must fold the turn to the raise even if it means potentially being bluffed out by a spade draw. Given the raise preflop from a solid albeit aggressive player, the only thing Angelina could hold that duchesse can beat is JTs and KTs, and duchesse is no huge favourite there. Against the range of hands that Angelina would have here, duchesse is in big trouble.


In fact, I think it was probably a bad idea to try to represent an ace in the first place given that most early position raises are either from wired pairs or hands containing aces.