when is it correct to call an allin on a draw?

[DrewOnTilt]

Several times recently I have flopped a draw to the nuts only to have another player either go allin or put me allin. Other than correct pot odds, what factors need to be present in order to justify a call?

I would like to know this in terms of players left, stack sizes, my relative stack position, et cetera.

[comguy321]

Hi,
I'm new at this, and so I might be wrong, but here it goes anyway. I'm thinking of one situation where this might be a good call. If there's a cronic all-in raiser in front of you, and you're about to be blinded out anyway, you might call, because you could hit your flush, and because you could win with just your ace.

Steve.

[syka16]

First off. You shouldn't be calling all ins on a draw very often. but a common time is when you're very short stacked in the BB with XXs and a bunch of limpers and the flop contains 2 suited (pot's 3:1).

Another time is on the bubble. You're a big stack and try a steal LP with Axs or Kxs against a lower/mid stack and he does a stop and go. You've got 9 outs to the nuts and usually 3 for an over card so sometimes you're getting better than 3:1 to call.

It's usually only correct to call when you're short stacked or chip leader (unless you're getting 8:1 or something like that). With a mid stack, sometimes you get a good opportunity to call but not usually so don't worry about it too much.

[betgo]

You have to look at pot odds, how strong the draw is, and how strong you think your opponent's hand is.

If the draw is strong enough, it is an easy call. Say the flop is 8s7sQd. If have Ts9s, AsKs, or KsQs, I would probably call a push.

[Scuba Chuck]

Focusing only on the CALL of an allin with a draw.

I’m bored, and I am probably getting to be too arrogant in my poker play lately, so I could use some criticism. This is going to be long…

Let's break it down - for discussion sake.
You've got many factors to consider: chip stack, how many callers behind you, is the board already paired, table image of bettor, what you believe bettor has, did the bettor lead PF with a large raise, how many cards to come, how many hole cards you’re using to make the draw, and time frame of play (EP-early play, MP-middle play, bubble, & ITM). Oh, and what kind of draw.

Basic poker…
4 outs Gut-shot straight draw:
8 outs open-ended straight draw
9 outs flush draw

Personally, I never call an allin (true) draw with a gut-shot straight draw, and virtually never an open-ended straight draw. (True draw, meaning no pairs, or other hand types)

So let's focus on the flush draws.

Let's start with some card scenarios first
(all scenarios assume you see 4 flush cards already):
1) You have a two hole flush draw and top pair.
2) You have a two hole flush draw with middle pair
3) You have a two hole flush draw and an open-ended str8 draw
4) You have an open-ended flush straight draw
5) You have a two hole flush draw and Ace or King (of the flush)
6) You have a two hole flush draw with rags of the flush
7) You have a one hole flush draw with the Ace (of flush)
8) You have a one hole flush draw with rag (of flush)

There are many more scenarios, but this is enough for now.

I’m sure there are books written given all the factors stated above and more. I am going to narrow it down to the following assumptions. Assume, no callers behind you, board is not paired, you know nothing about your bettor, two cards to come, and you believe the bettor currently has you beat (except for scenario 7, and some ITM/bubble bets).

That leaves us with three variables to focus on: Chip stack, Time frame of game, and PF bets

Short-stack & EP – Not worth it to call an all-in, as there WILL be many more chances for you to use skill to win the tournament (vs. luck). Not true if extremely short-stacked. Probably plus $EV to make a stand and win, or lose and move on to another SNG.

Short-stack & MP
– Pretty much all 8 card scenarios are worth it to call an allin if you believe you are about to lose Folding Equity and blinds are bleeding you. Perhaps early in round 4 this is false. Do you see why?
– If UTG (or UTG +1, if 6 or more left) is chip leader or close to chip leader, and he makes a significant PF raise, and not calling leaves you with at least 5xBB chip stack
Easy Call for Scenario 1 (especially if A or K)
Tough Call for Scenarios 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7.
Easy fold for 8
– If Button raises allin after everyone checks to him, you might consider calling all but 8.

Short-stack – ITM & bubble
– I would call the following, assuming I have some folding equity left (otherwise call):
Easy Call for Scenario 1, 2, & 7. Do you see why?
Tough Call for Scenario 3, 4, 5, & 6 (Remaining chip stack is very dependent here)
Easy fold for Scenario 8

Middle Stack – EP, MP & bubble
– I pretty much recommend folding all draws here (especially EP), and continue to use the gap concept to steal blinds, and wait for stronger hands to call with. Remember, Texas Hold’em is a game of Top Pair Top Kicker. No reason to risk going out on a draw with this chip position.
Tough Call is Scenario 1 (especially if it is A or K)

Middle Stack – ITM
– I am a little loose in this scenario, as I believe in “Play to win.” I tend to try to take chip leader, foolishly perhaps.
– Big Stack bets
Easy Call for Scenarios 1, 2, 7
Easy Fold for Scenario 3, 4, 5, 6, & 8
Exception – if your chip stack is not more than 3 (or 4) x BB - push
– Small Stack bets
Easy Call for Scenarios 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7. Do you see why? ( no matter chip size of bettor)
Easy Fold for Scenario 8

Chip Leader – EP & MP
– Not much to choose from for calls
Easy Call – Scenario 7 if you’re Ace is bullets
Tough Call for Scenario 1 & 7 (especially for EP).
Scenario 1 only if it is the A or K. Do you see why?
Scenario 7 because most likely the bet is a bluff, or a King high flush.
Easy Fold for Scenario 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 8
I think it is more important to maintain and build from the chip leader position, so that you can bully on the bubble.

Chip Leader – bubble
– If allin bet is ¼ of your chip stack
Easy Call for Scenarios 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7
Easy fold for Scenario 8
– If allin bet is ¼ - ½ of your chip stack
Easy Call for Scenarios 1, 2, 3, & 7
Tough Call for Scenarios 4, 5, & 6
Easy Fold for Scenario 8
– If allin bet is greater than ½ your chip stack
Easy Call for Scenarios 1 & 2.
Tough Call for Scenarios 3 & 4 (This is a very strong tough call)
Easy Fold 5, 6, 7, & 8

Chip Leader – ITM
As stated earlier, I am pretty loose here, so there is plenty room for “improvement”
– If allin bet is for half your chip stack or less
Easy Call for Scenarios 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7
Easy Fold for Scenario 8
– If allin bet is for more than half your chip stack
Easy Call for Scenarios 1, 2, 3, 4 and probably 7
Tough Call for Scenarios 5 & 6 (Another strong tough call for 5)
Easy Fold for Scenario 8

Looking back on my comments, I notice two things:
1) I don’t give much credibility to the straight flush draw. It probably doesn’t matter for virtually every allin bet on the flop. I would only be worried about a full house if the board paired. And even then, I’m probably only up against a set.
2) I don’t give a two hole Ace high flush draw any more hand ranking over a two hole rags flush draw. Any thoughts?

Wow this is long.
All flames and comments welcome.

Scuba

[Scuba Chuck]

One more thing. Tough call is not an excuse for a call. On average, I would say they are a 50-70% fold.

Interestingly enough, if you are "experimenting" with your play, the tough call area is what you want to work on.

Scuba

[raptor517]

i rather not have the aks right there. weaker than the 910s and much weaker than the kqs. kqs is a very solid holding right there. any time you are getting correct pot odds on the call of an all in, i would take it without hesitation. if you know when u hit you will win and can calculate your true odds, then by all means call the all in. a lot of times when looking at the nut flush draw, you dont factor in your extra 3 top pair outs, which come into play more than people think. i dont get involved with draws in sngs because i simply dont play any drawing hands early. save your chips for blind stealing later.