8Ts, flop play

[cold_cash]

SB is a tight and solid player. (I had over 1,000 hands against him in my PT database, 15& VPIP, 8% PFR, aggro rating around 3ish).

Other players were different degrees of loose/passive.

I think I'm going to stop where I had my fist question, which was the flop.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero....?

[esspo]

... folds pre-flop.

[cold_cash]

Seriously?

I know my relative position sucks, but I think this was a pretty easy call.

[esspo]

Umm. The rock of gibralter raised out of the SB. You are going to be trapped between said granite and two other players for three more streets. Hero has rags. Auto-muck.

[SCfuji]

pf call is fine. i raise and see who wants to play and go on from there. calling seems worst, folding seems like an okay option, but i like to play my hands, so id raise.

[cold_cash]

He's not a rock, and I'm likely getting 9:1 on call here with a suited one gapper (which I wouldn't exactly call "rags").

Granted, there's no way I'm ahead of the SB before the flop, but folding here is giving up way too much, IMO.

[cold_cash]

It was checked to me on the flop.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Umm. The rock of gibralter raised out of the SB. You are going to be trapped between said granite and two other players for three more streets. Hero has rags. Auto-muck.

[/ QUOTE ]
15/8 isn't a rock, and this should be an easy call.

Postflop, I think I check and see what develops. Both of these hands are in common limping ranges, and I'm not comfortable taking the lead on this flop yet.

Rob

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
pf call is fine. i raise and see who wants to play and go on from there. calling seems worst, folding seems like an okay option, but i like to play my hands, so id raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

hard to raise this flop when its checked to you.

[esspo]

Woah. 15/8 at 2/4 PP isn't a rock?

As for the pre-flop call. Yuck. At best its only a little -ev. You get the button in two hands. I save my suited one gappers for when I have position.

Yes, hero is likely getting 9:1 on his call, but 9:1 for what. The chance to flop a weak draw, or second or third pair, which is just what happened. The flop comes, pre-flop raiser checks and hero has a weak hand in a largish pot, with two players to act behind him that he has no idea what they have. Hero doesn't even know what sb has yet.

Suited one gappers have value against large fields when you can get in cheap and have position. I don't see any of those criteria satisifed here. Muck.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Woah. 15/8 at 2/4 PP isn't a rock?

[/ QUOTE ]

A rock would never raise 8% of his hands preflop. 15/3? Now that's a rock.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Woah. 15/8 at 2/4 PP isn't a rock?

As for the pre-flop call. Yuck. At best its only a little -ev. You get the button in two hands. I save my suited one gappers for when I have position.

Yes, hero is likely getting 9:1 on his call, but 9:1 for what. The chance to flop a weak draw, or second or third pair, which is just what happened. The flop comes, pre-flop raiser checks and hero has a weak hand in a largish pot, with two players to act behind him that he has no idea what they have. Hero doesn't even know what sb has yet.

Suited one gappers have value against large fields when you can get in cheap and have position. I don't see any of those criteria satisifed here. Muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, 15/8 isn't a rock. 15/8 is a normal TAG with average raising standards. Maybe a bit tight, but nowhere near a rock.

...and yes, you will often flop a weak draw, or a marginal made hand, or absolutely nothing at all. That said, 9:1 is too good to fold this here, and if you're folding this, you're missing out on a +EV opportunity.

Would you fold Q8s here? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1338366&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1)

Rob

[esspo]

I know the arguments for calling and who makes them and I respectfully disagree. If you look at Ed's answer it conceeds that folding 10 6 suited may be the right play. I think that point makes it clear that if folding is giving up anything, its razor thin ev over the long run, ASSUMING you play extremely well post flop. If you are multi tabling, there are so many better ways to expend your energy than dealing with a situation that is going to be, at best, neutral ev and will definatly be -ev unless you play very well every hand you play it.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I know the arguments for calling and who makes them and I respectfully disagree. If you look at Ed's answer it conceeds that folding 10 6 suited may be the right play. I think that point makes it clear that if folding is giving up anything, its razor thin ev over the long run, ASSUMING you play extremely well post flop. If you are multi tabling, there are so many better ways to expend your energy than dealing with a situation that is going to be, at best, neutral ev and will definatly be -ev unless you play very well every hand you play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, whatever. I'd probably fold T6s so I agree that it's close, but +EV is +EV, and I know this is a +EV call (I think even Ed's wording makes it seem that if T6s is a "maybe" call in that situation, T8s definitely isn't something that you would look to fold here). Suited one gappers are fine here. If you decide you don't want to call, fine, whatever, but I would advise others to call in this spot and work out the difficulties of postflop play later, rather than just bluntly stating "fold preflop."

Regardless, arguing about preflop here isn't going to do much. If I had a way to prove that this call is +EV I would, but I don't have it coming up enough in my stats to say one way or another.

Anyway, on the flop, I'd check. I dunno about you, since apparently you'd have folded already.

Rob

[Harv72b]

check/fold the flop.

You called PF with the T8s because of it's straight-building &amp; flush possibilities. You have no flush draw and only a very weak backdoor straight draw, and even on the off chance that your MPWK is the best hand right now, you're way susceptible to others' draws. SB is probably playing for a c/r here anyway.

If it does get checked around, then you can reevaluate based on the turn card, but I don't think that happened. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[cold_cash]

Well I didn't really want to start a debate about the pre-flop play because in my mind it's a call and it's not really close. Not saying I'm not open to the discussion itself, but I can't really imagine anyone changing my mind about it.

The right flop play was what I most concerned about.

Here's the rest of the hand if anyone gives a hoot.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (5 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (7 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7 BB


SB had AK.

[Entity]

Cash,

Looks fine. Against some opponents I bet the river and against some I just check.

Rob

[nothumb]

Well, no lie, looking at this post initially I was thinking, "AK is well within his range here. I either check and call one bet on this flop, or check and fold if he raises, or bet out hoping that others fold and he just calls... or..."

Anyway, my thinking was, he's almost always either check-raising here or he missed, so getting a bet in gives you a good idea of where you're at, but I might not want to put the bet in first.

If I bet and they all fold and he calls, I feel okay. If I bet and get raised, sucks a lot. If I check and there's a bet and he calls, again, not great. If it gets checked through I feel okay, but...

Basically, I think this went pretty well for you, and there are a lot of flop considerations that all have their ups and downs, but checking the flop is probably the best play against loose-passives behind you with a check-raise being a real possibility here.

NT