TP $1-2 rake

Mr. Gzesh,


With all due respect, you can't really think your collective player pool is this stupid, can you? When you try to spin this issue into a positive thing for the players, it really doesn't look good. Let's call a thorn a thorn, shall we?


To imply that this is anything but a RAKE INCREASE is an insult, and to try to convince anyone otherwise is insulting to them.


Let's unwrap your positive spin on the whole thing and lay out the simple facts. The average pot in an 8-player hold'em game is between 6 and 7 BBs. In a $1-$2 game, $12 to $14. So, on average, TP will rake $1 per game whereas everyone else will rake 50 cents.


That is as simple as it gets.


Would you care to comment on the reasons why TP is doing this in the first place? If your intent was indeed to lower the rake, how about just CAP it at 50 or 75 cents and not try something as sneaky as this.


We're all wondering.

It's obvious that you have something personally against the Truepoker site, since you have started a number of threads with approx. the same content.


I enjoy playing there a lot. The games are great and my bank drafts have always arrived within two weeks, even though I live in Sweden.


My only worry is that they might increase the number of tournaments to a point where the ring games will start to suffer. This must be a difficult balance act for the Truepoker crew.

I started the first thread.


I like Truepoker and that's the site I choose to play at at the moment. I just have three complaints:

1) The server restarts and breakdowns

2) The raising of the rake at the 1/2-tables from very nice to pretty oppressive

3) The slight communication problems between the hosts and technicians/management


What I like is:

1) Soft games

2) Nice interface

3) Nice atmosphere

4) Nice tournaments

5) No probs with the cash-outs


I hope the CEO admits that they made a mistake with the rake and return to the old 'nothing up to twenty'. When the server is restarting once every two hours and only two or three tables are playing at a given time it's not a good strategy to raise the rake.

No one thinks poker players are stupid. Stop trying to put words in other people's mouths.


The facts remain that


Truepoker now collects a rake in $ 1 -2 holdem games when the called bets in a pot reach $12.00. Formerly, Truepoker, alone among all sites I know of, collected ZERO rake until such a pot reached $20.00.


Truepoker STILL charges ZERO rake for pots below $12.00.


As for your mathematics, your analysis is "not as simple as it gets".


I think that the pot size distribution for example, rather than an "average" pot size should be looked at. A "mean" figure for example would tell us a distribution where 1/2 the played pots are below a given pot size and 1/2 are above.


For example, if nine pots are contested at $6.00, six are played at $ 10.00, , one is played at $16.00, seven are played at $20.00, and one at $22.00: the average pot size is $12.25. However, the Truepoker rake from such a distribution would be

$ 9.00, not the $24.00 you would have us believe. (In comparison, I believe the same distribution under a hypothetical under a Planet Poker type rake structure would be about $14.00.)


Clearly, even if your guess on "averages" is correct as to the average pot size, that could mean that those sites which rake quarters far below $12.00 are taking far more from a game than those which charge a rake beginning at $12.00.


In any event, I doubt strongly that an "average" pot in a 1-2 holdem game is 6 to 7 big bets, or $12 - 14.00.


If you or any 2 + 2 readers want to give me data backing-up the idea that an 1 -2 holdem average pot is over $12.00, and that beginning the rake there is relatively unfair, given a distribution of pot sizes over a range of values, I would be happy to listen and reconsider our rake structure. However, please email responses to me for serious review.


David Gzesh, CEO

I want to give a quick response. It doesnt contain mathematics about the rake, I might get to that some other day.


But, I think the way your rake system works increases the demand for short handed games, since your rake system has more advantages for shorthanded games, since the rake-limit will often not be reached. Full ring games look less attractive IMO (again, I didnt do the maths, but it looks this way). Now the main question is, is this the thing you want? (especially for beginning players). I think not, because given the (very) good rake for shorthanded games, there is some profit for good low limit shorthanded players, where as if the rake is normal for low limit full ring game standards (compared to shorthanded), good low limit players probably wouldnt bother the mini games and go for some higher stakes. This is just my intuition, but you might want to consider it.


Conclusion: I think you need to adjust the rake to make full ring games more profitable as opposed to shorthanded games.


Regards

Thanks for the constructive insight and comment. We will certainly consider the effect you've described.


The "math" in my prior post was not intended as anything other than an illustration that the distribution of pot sizes had a greater effect on expected rake/cost to players than does an "average" pot size. The point was a minor one, offered only in rebuttal. If anyone had data which supported the contentions about "pot size" and expected rake, I was willing to take a look.


At Truepoker, we strive to provide a true to life poker experience and enjoyable playing environment. We are a business which can learn continually from the poker community about how to develope our site and your experiences playing there.


Thanks again.

David,


I appreciate your involvement on this forum but...


Why cannot you admit that it is a rake increase? It is actually a little funny that you cannot. We understand that you believe that your rake is smaller than other sites 1/2 games, but the FACT still remains. It is an increase.


You obviously did not change the structure to lower the rake. I'm not sure why you are having problems admitting this. Also, could you comment on all the complaints about your online hosts and all the promising to help to no avail? I've heard this from several people.


One other question. Why do you think other poker sites don't lower the rake to attract people away from paradise?


Thank you for your response,


Adam.

...depends on what the meaning of the word 'increase' is. This joker will soon learn that defending things like this rake hike is a losing battle on this forum.


My quick look at the math behind it suggests that his move will roughly double or triple the rake. Of course this is all academic since I will never play at TruePoker again. Looks like maybe you shouldn't either.

It sounds like you are speculating on the size of the average pots, etc. I don't understand this, as it seems like you would be in a position to calculate exactly what the averages are, and to evaluate the effect of changing the rake structure to know exactly what the impact would be. What am I missing here? Given you have all the data, it would seem to be as simple as it gets for you to determine pot size distributions, etc.

Adam,


You are certainly correct. Truepoker increased its rake for holdem pots in $1-2 games, only when the pot is between $12 and $20.


What I was objecting to in the prior post was the unfair characterization that Truepoker was a vampire, in light of the fact that Truepoker takes ZERO drop between $5.00 and $12.00, unlike other sites. (In a subsequent post I personally am called a "joker", I can live with that.)


As for our Hosts, I would say we have the finest online hosts in the business. They are online, live, 24/7. Hosts answer a tremendous number of inquiries and questions every day, live on the site. We perform that service in part because we believe many questions can and should be answered live, by someone who can see the situation first-hand, in real time.


We also periodically staff a "Tech Room" on the site with a Truetech person present to field player inquiries.


We answer more technical or complex player inquiries with substantive information as soon as possible, whether made to Hosts, to support@truepoker.com or referred to someone for finance, FedEx or banking questions.


We will always try and improve our customer service performance.

If any player feels an email was not timely responded to, please copy admin@truepoker.com. That address is not staffed 24/7, but will follow up on every referred email inquiry.


As for your final question, Truepoker seeks to offer players the premium play experience on the Internet. We want to offer a level of service and a social/play environment which will carve out a competitive niche, instead of attacking industry giants such as Paradise. We started with writing the best graphics and are continuing with the best tournament software available. There are other ways to compete than price. One is by continually improving the services, value and products we offer.


We are committed to this business for the long term and realize we need to improve our understanding of the players' market as we progress.


Thanks for the inquiry.


David Gzesh

I find it strange that a CEO of an online site is asking players to provide feedback on the pot distribution. Don't you have all the numbers from the games played on your site? Instead of asking why don't *you* provide the distribution of pots in $1-2 games on True Poker and show what was the "true" impact of the changed drake.