I am considering just to limp with AK early for now on early

[Vetstadium]

Maybe I have to rethink my way of playing it I usually come in for raise of about 5X BB and it seems at Party nobody folds to raises this early. Just seems like in over 1000 SNG's wasting chips early with this hand. If A or K doesn't hit easy fold but so many idiots on there you hit top Pair ragged board they raise you all in. Hate to just call with a starting hand like AK I do play tight early so don't bleed lots of chips early but looking for a way for when I reach bubble have more chips.

[CardMinger]

I definately agree with your post and have had problems at well at party...at lower level playes will still easily call a 5xBB raise with a broad range of hands like KJ, QJ, AT etc. The way I have been playing lately is to make a 2.5 or 3xBB raise with AK in hopes to at least keep the SB/BB from playing a 52o and catching straits & 2 pair. There are also players that respect early position raises enough to lay down fishy hands like QJ.

Again I play low limits on Party ($20+2's or $30+3's) so this information might not apply to other sites / limits.

[m bozeman]

I limp with AK frequently in early stages of tournaments, and will release the hand if the board misses me, or I get alot of action. If I limp and am raised, I will sometimes just call, or sometimes reraise, depending on the situation. I put much more value on the hand in the later stages of a tournament than early on. Early on, you may win a small pot, or lose a big one.

[betgo]

I don't agree with this at all. Raise with AK. If 3 people call you, fine. You get the money in with the best hand. If you need to fold this frequently, so what. Who is in better shape, you with AK or your callers with ATo, KJo, or 97s?

If there are limpers to me, I will raise. If it is raised to me, I will generally reraise.

The only time I would limp from early position with AK is when I was planning to limp reraise allin, but I wouldn't try that with deep money early on.

[morgan180]

I agree with betgo. AK is a 65% favorite over any two random hands. Plus your odds of winning improves with a raise as you'll push out trash hands that occassionally catch a miracle flop. You may not knock out weak kings or weak aces who occaisionally catch two pair, but that is the entire point, to get your money in when you have the best of it. Clearly AK is a premium hand and if you don't get your money in with it you are passing up EV.

Make a raise to 3x BB and if you miss the flop, depending on your read and position fold or bet. You pass up way too much expectation by not raising here.

Just my opinion.

[kalooki45]

I hate AK....
RIght now I raise it maybe 2 1/2x..big enough to scare trash, normal enough to keep in weaker As & Ks, which I figure to beat.
If you get it very early, people often think you're on a steal, (WHY they think you're dying to risk the trny to get 30 chips is beyond me...) and will call with junk quite often.
I prefer to see the flop before I put much money in--AK lets you down a lot--but it's worth a reasonable raise.

[Scuba Chuck]

Vet, this is a terrible long term strategy. This means that you would also need to limp in with AA, KK and QQ IMO. Otherwise you're giving away signs.

Perhaps your approach is incorrect. Psychologically, you might be thinking you're going to win this hand post flop. That can't be further from the truth. Your ability to fold this hand after a medium/large PF raise is a credit to your ability as a poker player. You should praise yourself on that. Remember poker is about maximizing your winnings on your good hands, and minimizing your losses on your bad hands. Why would you not want to build a pot with such a dominant PF position?

I used to struggle with what is the right amount to open bet PF. I have come to the conclusion that I want to bet enough so that any garbage the big blind might have is folded. You want to set the stage so that any callers can be put on hands like AQ, 2 broadway cards, or a pair. This is how you maximize your winnings if you flop well. It also will allow you to call any minimum raises (if u play that way) if the flop is all rags. If that means I win a few measley blinds and calls, then so be it. It was meant to be. I won't be drawn out by 86o. I don't want to give up ANY chips with a premium PF hand.

In round 1 and 2 I generally open bet 75-100 (PP). I never reraise, unless raise is below this amount. Depending on the size of a reraise I may call or fold - I can't believe how many $33ers raise to $250 with 99. In fact, if I have AA, KK, QQ I also open bet 75-100. I don't want to give away any hands.

Those are my Scuba cents...

[Scuba Chuck]

BTW, when you're studying your HHs, do you notice you are having the most problems in round 1?

I continue to see advice that you should bet 3xBB when you have AK. 3xBB in round 1 will not push off too much garbage or fish for that matter.

some more Scuba cents...

[Benholio]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, when you're studying your HHs, do you notice you are having the most problems in round 1?

I continue to see advice that you should bet 3xBB when you have AK. 3xBB in round 1 will not push off too much garbage or fish for that matter.

some more Scuba cents...

[/ QUOTE ]

Many people use a standard raise higher than 3xBB in round 1 (or round 2 for that matter). If someone with Ax will call your 3xBB raise in level 1, they will probably call your 5xBB raise too. Personally, I open-raise to 60-65 in level 1 @ party (and more if there are limpers).

[morgan180]

[ QUOTE ]
I open-raise to 60-65 in level 1 @ party (and more if there are limpers)

[/ QUOTE ]

i like this raise, either way, you've got to raise with AK as the first raiser.

[Glintir]

[ QUOTE ]
I continue to see advice that you should bet 3xBB when you have AK. 3xBB in round 1 will not push off too much garbage or fish for that matter.


[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me if my logic is off you disagree with my thoughts here, this is just my view.

Here's how I see it. On average
Limp = 7-8 people see the flop
Minraise = 6-7 people see the flop
3xBB = 5-6 people see the flop
5xBB = 5-6 people see the flop

So, first off, if I drive out the same average number of people with 3x and 5x, why not go with 3x. Second, 2 less hands is two less goofball hits. Three, I'm setting up a betting pattern I can exploit later. It's less about this hand than the whole enchilada.

[Big Limpin']

After getting involved in a similar post 2 weeks ago...i have come to this conclusion:

Play it in a manner that YOU feel comfortable with. We all have particular strengths and weaknesses, and natural playing styles.

Personally, I limp it most of the time, and have previously given my reasons for doing so. Is this the best way to play AK early? Maybe. Is it the way i feel most comfortable? Definately.

Are you naturally agressive, and willing to fire second barrels on the turn when you have missed? Are you good at picking up those "that call seemed out of line....i bet he has 2 pairs..." type situations? I guess it comes down to what works for you.

[raptor517]

finally someone else recommends limping ak early. i do this all the time, and have been playing 100+9s and 200+9s for around 2k tournaments now and have had great success. everyone plays it differently, but i think that limping early is not a bad strategy, because the key to having a longterm positive roi is conserving chips in the early rounds, and you WILL not double through someone in the higher limits when u have ak. u will only get beat.

[McBandit]

quote: "the key to having a longterm positive roi is conserving chips in the early rounds"


I can't agree with this post more. I used to play 50s and 100s at PP, but now exclusively 4-table 10s. After 100 tournies I have a ROI of 40%. I have concluded that the 10s are so beatable because the average 10+1 player is simply atrocious at bubble play. They play far too loose in early rounds and far too tight in late rounds. I shy away from all close plays (for example committing 3x BB preflop with AKo -- which is 90 chips at lvl 2, not a pittance). I find that getting to lvl 4 with 650-700 chips is more than enough to get into the money 50% of the time, since they can't adjust to my switch to aggressive play and blind stealing.

That being said, the times I do raise it are when several people have limped to me in late position or blinds and I put in a large raise, like 250 at lvl 1. I rarely get called in these positions. My goal of course is to pick up the pot (which is like 100 chips before my raise)without a flop, and wait until lvl 4 to start tangling with people.

McBandit

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
...you WILL not double through someone in the higher limits when u have ak. u will only get beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must be playing different $100 and $200 sit n goes than I am. I get called by AJ and AQ and double through on an A high flop a reasonable amount of the time.

In a game where an early position preflop raise is likely to get 4 or 5 callers, I don't mind the limp, but in the higher limits where it has a chance to take down the blinds or get heads up, I think this should be raised every time...

[TheHybrid144]

Isn't it not just about getting folds, but getting your chips in the middle with the probable best hand? If the raise isn't detrimental, and you can afford a release post flop if needed, shouldn't you be happy putting your money in with ak?

[Scuba Chuck]

I have not run any numbers, but I continually doubt that limping is the best strategy. And "conserving chips" is any good when you have a strong hand. I am cavalier about getting my chips in with such a strong hand, but wary of the premium pairs. Bet, and gather info.

AK likes heads up, maybe 3 player action. My advice is to figure out what this bet is. Any player willing to call a large enough bet with an atrocious hand is now on your FISH list, and not only will you have a potential opportunity to get your chips back and the rest of his, but if you play it right, most likely you'll be able to set him later in the tournament.

Finally, if you're betting 5xBB in round 1 and getting 5 callers, then you're either playing low limit tournaments with many fish (yummy) or you have not identified what is the right amount to ward off any but the better hands that you want to match up against like AQ.

Without knowing more about your style of play, it's difficult to define this problem. But if you're consistently betting 5xBB in round 1 with that many "limpers", my thought is that you do not have the right table image, and that you're playing too many hands, IMO.

If you like to play a lot of hands, Daniel Negraneu-style, then I do think it's right to limp in with AK.

Too much analysis?? I gotta go.
Scube /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
In a game where an early position preflop raise is likely to get 4 or 5 callers, I don't mind the limp, but in the higher limits where it has a chance to take down the blinds or get heads up, I think this should be raised every time...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why you don't want calls with AK. If it's level 1 and I raise to 60 UTG with AK and get 5 callers and a pot of about 375, I would prefer that to getting no callers and picking up 25 in blinds. Similarly at level 2, I would prefer 5 callers and a pot of 750 to picking up 45 in blinds.

[boxedIn]

I'll add in my two cents here simply because I'm an idiot and that seems to go over well.

I usually limp with AK, with the intention of trapping any over-aggressive players preflop and killing people with KJ/AQ postflop on top pair. If there is action given preflop, I'm more than happy to reraise, but I don't particularly like opening with it.

Here's why. It mostly depends on position. If I'm in early position, a raise drives out many players I'd like to have in - weak Ax, etc. If it's early, it has been my experience that when you get a flop like Axx or Kxx and you show strength from early position, you will get called down by shittier top pairs but only reraised with hands that beat you. This is a turn raise, mind you. It would depend on your read with players and the tone of the board - and sometimes you might have to drop AK on an Axx board to odd betting, but in general I think you can trap people effectively with it.

In late position, I will raise limpers about 50% of the time and just limp the other 50%. If it happens to be an unopened pot when it gets to me, there's no way I'm allowing it to stay unopened and I will raise to my hearts content.


I think there's an issue here which you are all pretty much ignoring, which is betting AK for value on a non-A/K board. That is, say you raise it preflop to 5x BB from MP and you get two callers (the SB and the CO, say). The flop comes something like 368. This is a flop that might get calls from AQ, but in general if you fire again, you're probably going to take the pot down right there. That's chips you wouldn't have if you limped preflop.

That's the main deficiency in preflop limping with AK. You will, in general, have the best hand postflop and by limping, you will probably take down a small pot with the best hand.

It's up to the specific person to figure out if the amount of times they lessen the pot size in those situations is worth it for the trap value given by limping. In my case, I think it is, but for each person it's probably different.

Whatever, this is such an ad nauseum discussion I don't even know why I'm replying.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually limp with AK, with the intention of trapping any over-aggressive players preflop and killing people with KJ/AQ postflop on top pair. If there is action given preflop, I'm more than happy to reraise, but I don't particularly like opening with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. While I criticized limping with AK because you get too many callers, I will often limp with AK in early position early in an SNG. The reason is that if I raise UTG, I may get one caller or pick up the blinds.

If I limp, there will sometimes be a raise and a couple of callers. Then I will reraise them all. I know the books say only to make this play with AA, but with loose early SNG play I will try it with QQ, KK, and AK if the situation is right. There is so much limping that no one will initially suspect I am planning a limp reraise. One advantage is that, once they see the play, opponents may fold thinking I have aces.

It is generally OK to open limp from early position early in an MTT or SNG with normal raising hands like 99-JJ, AJ-AQ, KQs, ATs. This is partly not to overcommit until you see what the action to your left is. However, when you limp with QQ-AA or AK, the main purpose is not to tip off the strength of your hand.

[pho75]

Here is a recent CardPlayer article that touches on your point.
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14426

[betgo]

That article is trash. I don't agree with Vetstadium or the article. Why don't you want to get the money in preflop with AK?

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a recent CardPlayer article that touches on your point.
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14426

[/ QUOTE ]

I like. However isn't he talking about ring games?

[jcm4ccc]

My problems with AK are different.

1. When A or K hits the flop. Sometimes I lose all my chips when this happens. The problem is, I play Party $6 Turbos, and so I'm unwilling to fold AK if I hit the flop. Too many people are willing to put all their money in with worse hands, and I think it's a positive move to try to get all my chips in the middle. But I do bust out sometimes, and I feel like a chump when I do.

The other day I called a 6XBB raise with AK. The flop had a King. The preflop raiser checks. I go all-in. He calls with pocket Aces, just as I feared. He certainly hadn't tried to disguise the strength of his hand, so I felt like I got what I deserved. But then a lot of people will make a similar play with worse hands at the $6 Turbos.

2. When I have 12-13X the BB. This is really hard. In party, I might have $1200 in chips, and the blinds are 50/100. The blinds aren't really worth stealing, but I definitely don't want to lose 300 chips at this stage if I raise 3XBB and miss the flop. I think I should just go all-in in an unraised pot. The only hands I would really fear are AA and KK. I might steal the blinds, or I might get called by a hand that I dominate. But I don't know. I tend to try different things when this happens.

[raptor517]

cf, from what i have played, and what i have learned, i dont see enough people calling the raises with aq and aj to go all in on an ace high flop with their top pair second or third kicker. when the flop comes ace high, and you are getting a lot of action in the bigger games, that usually means something bigger than ak. people dont generally go crazy with top pair not best kicker in the 215s. sometimes in the 109s, and a lot in the 55s. i dont mind raising in late position if no one is in, or if its just one limper. im not saying limp every single time with ak, however, i really hate it when i make a normal, 3-4x raise, and get 3 callers, get checked to on a jack high flop, and have to make a choice on if i want to try to pick up the pot there, or check behind, get a free card, and fold to no improvement.

early in the tournament, i try to shy away from as many marginal situations as possible. i live by the fact that u cant win the tournament early, you can only lose. by bluffing off chips the 2/3 of the time your ak doesnt hit, you give up way too much imo. and when it does hit, and you do bet, your not going to get paid unless your beat. thats all im sayin.

[pho75]

Yes, but the first round of these cheap SNG's play alot like the little NL cash games. At least it seems like that to me.

[pho75]

this is from your other respose earlier in this tread:

-----
I don't agree with this at all. Raise with AK. If 3 people call you, fine. You get the money in with the best hand. If you need to fold this frequently, so what. Who is in better shape, you with AK or your callers with ATo, KJo, or 97s?
------

Now, I've only been playing for a few months so my logic might be a tad on the simple minded side, but this is how I think about it. Take your sample hands, which are a good representation of what I see. The AK is 2-1 dog against the rest of the callers and is only slightly better that the 97s when the AK is suited. When the AK is unsuited the 97s can actually turn out to be the best hand. It seems to me that for alot of chips, AK is good against one or two callers, not three or more.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
this is from your other respose earlier in this tread:

-----
I don't agree with this at all. Raise with AK. If 3 people call you, fine. You get the money in with the best hand. If you need to fold this frequently, so what. Who is in better shape, you with AK or your callers with ATo, KJo, or 97s?
------

Now, I've only been playing for a few months so my logic might be a tad on the simple minded side, but this is how I think about it. Take your sample hands, which are a good representation of what I see. The AK is 2-1 dog against the rest of the callers and is only slightly better that the 97s when the AK is suited. When the AK is unsuited the 97s can actually turn out to be the best hand. It seems to me that for alot of chips, AK is good against one or two callers, not three or more.


[/ QUOTE ]

Say, you open raise to 120 in level 2 on Party and everyone calls. Then you have 1200 in the pot. Say you push on the flop if an ace or king hits and fold otherwise. Isn't this EV+?

If you get say 4 callers, you are not going to win the hand a lot of the time, but you have the advantage. You put the money in with a premium hand. They put it in with Ax, face cards, suited gappers, small pairs or the like. I would rather have AK in a 5-way pot than some marginal hand.

[betgo]

To be fair, raising with AK is tricky in this situation. If you get 3 callers, and no ace or king flops, you should usually check in early position. Either the callers have a hand that plays well multiway to an early position raise, such as a pair, a suited connector, AQ, or AK or they are calling stations. Either way, it may be hard to get them to fold. On certain flops, it is probably good to fire a substantial bet at the flop, but that requires some reading.

If an ace or king flops, a lot of times you will just pick up the pot. If you get action, you are usually either way ahead Ax or Kx or way behind 2 pair, a set or something. This is also tricky to play.

So if you are going to lose chips on average raising with AK, then go ahead and limp. Raising may be better for a top professional, but limping may be better for you.

However, when you have a quality hand like AK, you have to look for a way to exploit it. What if you limp with AK and someone else raises. Do you fold rather than play AK raised multiway? I would reraise. If you play weak/tight, you are not going to win.

I usually limp here, partly becasue it is tricky to play the raised hand. It is much easier to wait for someone else to raise and the reraise allin. AK is the kind of thand you like to push with.

You could also just open push with AK. I know this is technically a bad play. However, you will usually pick up the blinds, and you will probably be called more often by Ax or Kx than AA or KK. Additionally, if you are not called, you will establish a reckless fish table image which may pay dividends later.

There was another thread where people were savaging me for calling an early position raise with A2s with fairly deep money, multiway action, and late position. I feel comforatable playing A2s in that situation, so I think it is right for me. The people who were attacking me probably would not be comfortable playing A2s there.

[betgo]

One more point, a think limping with AK in early position with AK is OK. However, the Cardplayer article someone referenced said that in a cash game where everyone checked, you should just check in the BB with AK. This is terrible advise and wastes a great opportunity.

[pho75]

I like your reasoning alot. At my level I try to avoid putting myself in a position where I have to make decisions that are too tough. By just limping with my AK where I think a reasonable raise will get called by more that two player I make it easier on mysely if no A or K comes on the flop. Thanks for your well thought out response. It really helps the newbies.

[burningyen]

IMHO you're tilting.

[patrick dicaprio]

amazing isnt it? i could never understand why players are so afraid of losing. you hit it on the head, as usual. why wouldnt you want to be called with garbage hands. is anyone really unhappy when a guy calls you with JT and you have AK?

Pat

[texasrattlers]

[ QUOTE ]
why wouldnt you want to be called with garbage hands. is anyone really unhappy when a guy calls you with JT and you have AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny you should say this. I recently limped in a $10 MTT w/ AK after building a decent stack. Flop came AKQ. Of course big bets from me plus a couple of callers. One of them had JT. I think a good size re-raise scares off the JT and maybe leaves an AJ or AQ in the hand w/ me. Oh well.

[Aceshigh7]

[ QUOTE ]
That article is trash. I don't agree with Vetstadium or the article. Why don't you want to get the money in preflop with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, maybe because with AK all you have is a drawing hand.

[stupidsucker]

Here is my opinion on AK if you want to listen to an old coot.

All out limping with AK when there may be lots of limpers is all out lunacy imo, BUT you dont need to invest too much on a drawing hand.

A) Being the first one to raise is good.
B)re-raising is far from needed most of the time. I love coldcalling 2-3xbb with AK if it looks pretty good that it will be HU or at worst 3way. (Once you learn to see these spots you have made an improvement on your game)
c) KNOW how to play the flop with AK. Use position, number of opponents, and chip stacks wisely.

If you have the lead and the flop doesnt look terrible then make a play at the pot on the flopo with aprox a pot size bet. This works best HU, but can be done in a 3way pot if you are selective.

Dont be afraid to fold AK if you see too much action before it gets to you(Im talking early here). I often push preflop if I hit my Ace, ESPECIALY if I cold called preflop. AX just loves to pay you off, and the times that they get lucky with kicker dont happen enough to worry about it.

All of you are right to worry about AK as a drawing hand. Dont need to invest too much on a hand like this. And to think how many people overplay AQ makes you want to jump for joy irl.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


That article is trash. I don't agree with Vetstadium or the article. Why don't you want to get the money in preflop with AK?



[/ QUOTE ]
Um, maybe because with AK all you have is a drawing hand.



[/ QUOTE ]

The article gives an example of when 9 people limp in ahead of you and says you should check in the BB with AK. In this situation, you have to raise. You have 9 people who have shown weakness and indicated that they probably don't have a hand anywhere near as good as AK. Now they all had hands that were not worth raising with, so they limped for 2. However, when you raise, they will put in an additional 15 or 20. You shouldn't raise here, because these limp callers will be able to outplay you after the flop enough to negate your advantage of having the better hand? If you are that bad a player, you shouldn't be playing 1/2 no limit.

In early position, early in a SNG, there are other ways to play AK besides raising, such as going for a limpraise or just open pushing. However, when there are a bunch a limpers to you, I think you have to raise.

AK is not entirely a drawing hand. If no one has a pair, you are ahead before the flop.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
AK is not entirely a drawing hand. If no one has a pair, you are ahead before the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because its the best drawing hand preflop doesnt make it not a drawing hand.

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
Just because its the best drawing hand preflop doesnt make it not a drawing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bam. I like that one.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because its the best drawing hand preflop doesnt make it not a drawing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the other poker forum I read there was a 20 post discussion on shoving all in with 'only' a flush draw and bottom pair because the guy with A-rag on an A-2 flush board 'was ahead'. It didn't matter what the odds said, he 'was ahead' and therefore the other guy was wrong to CR him all in because he 'was behind'.

If I ever write a poker book I think the first chapter will be devoted to an explanation on why the words 'drawing hand' should never be used by anyone ever. After that, I'll spend the next two pages explaining that, with the dead money in the pot already, it is never ever right to check AK with 5, 9, or 17 limpers unless you really think that guy on your left has kings or something.

Okay, maybe not, but it'll definitely have a chapter on why people who play $10, $30, and yes, $50 SNG's all day who think they can pass up gigantic PF edges because they play well enough to make it up after the flop are deluding themselves.

[texasrattlers]

[ QUOTE ]
On the other poker forum I read ...

[/ QUOTE ]

What other poker forum do you read?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
What other poker forum do you read?

[/ QUOTE ]I post on the SomethingAwful forums*, which have a poker subforum.

*it's a humor site, but not for the thin skinned, which is also why I don't really sugarcoat any of my posts.