For Casino Regulars

[arkady]

I think my buddy and I are going to the Fox tomorrow and I am looking for some tips from anyone who plays live regularly. Last time I played live was some 2/4 at the Palms over a year ago, before my online days began.

I am mostly concerned about adjusting the aggression level, I got this impression that live play is less aggressive than online. Would a 3-bet on the flop always mean more tahn 1 pair, because we all know online it can be anything. Are they less likely to semi-bluff on the turn? Do they cap with anything less than AA/KK? I am talking about generalizations of course and understand that everyone plays differentely.

Also, I am not at all experienced in the way of picking up tells and even though I have glanced over Caro's book some time ago, got very little out of it. Are there some patterns that are more or less effective to watch out for?

Limit, I play 5/10 and *shudder* 10/20 online, should I jump right into 10/20 live? Or maybe warm up in 5/10 kill...or....suggestions?

Ok, thats it for now, thanks!

[Joe Tall]

should I jump right into 10/20 live

Can you beat the Party 1/2?

Happy Holidays,
Joe Tall

[ChicagoTroy]

You'll see people slow down a lot more on the turn, less semibluffing, less checkraising.

Revisit Caro's book after you've played live for a while, ignoring the bb/hour crap. One easy tell is that when a 3-flush board comes up, players will double-check their cards. This usually means they have at most one card of the suit, maybe zero.

[sfer]

The typical Party 1/2 games are both tighter and more aggressive.

Barf,
Dave

[arkady]

lol

[arkady]

lol...i guess that answers that one.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I am mostly concerned about adjusting the aggression level, I got this impression that live play is less aggressive than online. Would a 3-bet on the flop always mean more tahn 1 pair, because we all know online it can be anything. Are they less likely to semi-bluff on the turn? Do they cap with anything less than AA/KK? I am talking about generalizations of course and understand that everyone plays differentely.


[/ QUOTE ]

Giving generalizations about how to play specific situations would be stupid. However, I will say that the Fox 5/10 kill games probably play on a skill level equal to a Party 2/4 game, although the table texture can range from tight-passive to loose/LAGish. In addition, don't waste time trying to figure out behavioral tells--but do pay attention to each person's betting patterns, as you would when you are playing online.

[jayrutz2]

I know this is an ongoing, much debated topic, but I just DO NOT agree that live 10/20 = party 1/2. I think live is a more mental(meaning psychological) game, which adds an obvious human dimension that online lacks. I find beating party 1-2 or 2-4 to be easier than beating live 6-12. This is my personal experience...

[pokerkai]

All the live games Ive ever played in are extremely soft compared to their online counterparts...from 3/6 up to 20/40. Usually very loose passive. There will be times when you flop TPTK and get checked to the whole way with only non-scare cards coming and once the showdown comes, you find your secondbest to flopped two pair or set.

Although youll sometimes find some wild tables with straddles, blind raises and people capping because "its probably gonna get capped anyways". Id dare say any winning 2+2 player will 9 times out of 10 be the best player at any live table he sits at.

Regarding tells, there are many but the one surefire one I dont think has ever led me astray is the "sigh bet". If the river or turn comes and somebody sighs sorta halfheartedly without any other expression and comes out betting, just think MONSTER.

[shant]

The first time I played 6-12 live I could not believe the play I was seeing, and things weren't ever different every time I played it after that. I've played tougher games on Party 2/4. I think any good 2+2 player should be able to play at limits at least 3-5 times higher than they play online.

[shummie]

On tells: people looking away from the table or away from the action have good hands. People staring at you and/or the board and cards to come have weak hands or drawing hands.

Cheers.

- Jason

[sfer]

Have you played 10/20 at Foxwoods?

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
There will be times when you flop TPTK and get checked to the whole way with only non-scare cards coming and once the showdown comes, you find your secondbest to flopped two pair or set.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the biggest surprise for me live. People checking the river with the nuts or just calling earlier streets with the nuts.

Excalibur 2-6. Me with QQ and I raise 3 limpers to 8. Flop J high. I bet 6. 2 callers. Turn 7, I bet 1 caller. River Q, I bet and 1 caller. Opponent turned over 77 for the turned set and still just called me down.

[arkady]

great stuff! keep it coming guys /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pindawg]

[ QUOTE ]
On tells: people looking away from the table or away from the action have good hands. People staring at you and/or the board and cards to come have weak hands or drawing hands.

Cheers.

- Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't always true .. It's said weak means strong and vice versa, but this can always be reversed as well. But yes, typical casino cows are like that

[jayrutz2]

Yes, but I see this on Party 2/4 and 3/6, not so much 5/10 also. It is strange, but my experience just doesn't agree with the consensus on this. Small sample size???

K

BTW, I'd say I win 3 out of 5 sessions both online and live. Though my online losing sessions seem to be worse. Typically, this happens when I lose concentration late at night!!!!

[W. Deranged]

I've played a fair number of times at Foxwoods in the past few months, mostly 4-8, and I've realized a few things.

1. The games change radically depending on what time of day you are playing. I've definitely pulled the 11pm to 10 am session, and have noticed huge changes. I only ever played the 5-10 kill in the morning, and in that case it was quite tight and seemed to be filled with players warming up for bigger levels. Even still, I was totally comfortable and there were at least 2-3 very outmatched players who funded the game, even at that hour.

2. The kill game gets a lot of action on the kill pots. McEvoy/Cloutier have noted this phenomenon about kill games--people want to play big pots, and so they get really loose. Play solid in the kill pots and you'll have a chance to win a few monsters. With this said, if the table looks lucrative, I'd consider playing the 5/10 kill instead of the 10/20, because the play quality will be worse and you will have plenty of opportunities to exploit overplayed kill pots, while paying less in the blinds. Just a thought.

3. A turn check-raise (or unexpected raise) is the nuts. Or close to it. Live players, at least at Foxwoods 4-8/5/10 level, don't wake up on the turn without a monster. (N.B. there will be the exception of the total nut/maniac, who will probably be sitting at your table at some point of the night, but I'm sure you'll know who he/she is).

4. Expect to see some weird varieties of maniacal play. Foxwoods players love to straddle, and so get used to playing straddle pots. By my estimates, about 1/3 of the time I've played, there has been a committed straddler playing at my table. Expect one hand an hour on average to be played straddled.

4b. Pre-flop aggression does not translate into post-flop aggression. I've seen players straddle, cap pre-flop, and then fold to one bet on the turn even though they picked up a flush draw on the turn because, quote, "I don't like to chase."

Those are my experiences. I've found Foxwoods to be pretty much a haven of generally bad play (much looser, more reckless Turning Stone, where I play most of the time; probably a little more aggressive than AC... this is based on a small sample size, though).

[AviD]

Hey dude, I'd recommend the 5/10 kill at FW to get you warmed up and accustomed to live play. The 10/20 is just as good/great, and players can be pretty horrible (i.e. calling 3 cold with Q3s because they "had a feeling" confirmed on the river when they hit their flush).

In general, I find live games to be much softer and more passive but be open for anything. The games at FW are some of the best I've sat, general passive with a few maniacs mixed in here and there. You shouldn't have a problem picking up on it after you get settled into playing. I'm sure at first you'll be a bit overwhelmed with actually betting chips, counting them, physically looking at cards, keeping track of the action/number of players/pot size/etc....but you'll get used to it.

Good luck, FW is g00t! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[AviD]

Just avoid a guy wearing Pats clothing/hat and his friends and you should be OK! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I agree you'll be fine in this game, I think your biggest challenge will be getting used to doing all the work that playing online does for you (viewing cards, counting players, pot size, etc)...but since you are getting dealt less hands per hour and the average hand takes quite a bit longer...you will have time to wade through this.

[Joe Tall]

Just avoid a guy wearing Pats clothing/hat and his friends and you should be OK!

No, no, Pats-hat-shirt guy sucks, he's a totally feeder. But the guy w/frosted top, mock sweater and leather jacket is a total LAG, get in his game. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Happy Holidays,
Joe Tall

[arkady]

u gonna be there tomorrow Joe?

[arkady]

i am thinking about printing what us aid and taking it w/me - thanks a bunch !

[Joe Tall]

u gonna be there tomorrow Joe?

Um um um, maybe real late. I've got a meeting w/my accountant at 2PM and then a date at 7PM. If the date goes ary and ends early, I just may be down there.

You'll crush the 10/20 game, don't hesitate and get on the list.

Happy Holidays,
Joe Tall

[Yobz]

I've played live a couple of times. A dozen times at Turning Stone and once at the Borgata. TS games are loose and passive sometimes loose and aggressive. The Borg was the biggest joke ever. I played for 5 hours in the 6/12 game there and it played worse than the party .5/1. With the exception of a player or two, no one would raise unless they had the nuts. It was a fish-fest.

[arkady]

well you know more or less what i look like, find me if ur there plz.

[River2Pair]

a tell:

you bet into them on the river. they pause, grimace, have a really confused look on their face, kind of shrug and then say, "I raise." = the nuts.

here's another one I spotted on an older gentleman last week:

Sometimes when he'd bet, he'd put chips into the pot with his right hand, have his left arm folded across his chest, and kind of lean his head away from the table. I don't know if this is a common tell, but every time he did it, he had TPTK or better.