Do I take a stab at this pot? How?

[xxxxx]

$2-$4 at the local aquarium. This group is more passive then most. When someone raises it is like an event. It is not unusual for a round to check through.

I'm dealt A /images/graemlins/heart.gif- Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the button. Four lurkers to me, I raise, we lose both blinds strangely enough, but everyone else completes. I try to follow Ed's guidelines but I think I have the table image of being a rock.

The flop is J-9-8 rainbow with one heart. Checked around to me. I check through. I don't really have anything.

The turn is 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Now I have the nut flush draw with two overcards. The ten made my straight before but I now think people will call a raise if I get a ten. Checked around to me. I bet because I think I have enough outs, RHO only caller. The guy I'm head's up with is a call station par excellence. Goes too far with too many hands. If he bets or raises, he has the goods.

River card is 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I miss. Right hand opponent checks. I'm not sure I'm beat but I check through. He shows me pocket sixes to take the pot. I suppose estimating how often he would have folded to a bet takes some table feel but I'm wonderring if I should have bet more. I don't think this guy would have folded below bottom pair to a bet on the flop, silly as that sounds, and I sure he wouldn't fold inside straight draw (he plays the board on a ten) on the turn. Any ideas?

[Avatar]

The hand should have looked like this

Pre-Flop: Raise (which you did)
Flop: Bet!
Turn: Bet
River: Check

If you would have played the hand in the mannner I think there is a much greater chance he is folding.

The pots big. You failed to protect it, and he was right in calling you down after you checked the flop.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


I'm dealt A /images/graemlins/heart.gif- Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the button.

The flop is J-9-8 rainbow with one heart. Checked around to me. I check through. I don't really have anything.



[/ QUOTE ]

Don't have anything? You have overcards, a backdoor flush draw, and a gutshot. You raised PF and no one 3-bet you. You could very well have the best hand even with ace high, if everyone checked to you.

[xxxxx]

Thanks for your comments. We have no way of knowing whether Mr. pocket sixes would have folded for a bet on the flop which is why I posted results. The same pot size that makes me want to take it down makes it right for a small pair with five outs to call. If I do win this hand, I'm thinking it will be with the nuts straight or flush and therefore I want to keep people in the hand. My queen outs seem pretty dirty as they put four to a straight on the board. My ace outs seem ok, if I actually get another ace.

I'm not sure the failure of anyone here to raise or three-bet really tells me a whole lot. I've seen someone limp with pocket queens. Nor am I anxious to put someone on a hand based on the failure to bet the flop. I suppose nobody has TPTK or better but that's about it. Unless they are slow playing.

Enough with theory. Is it standard to bet the flop here?

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Enough with theory. Is it standard to bet the flop here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given this precise scenario 100 times, I bet the flop 100 times. There are just too many better drawing hands than yours to give away a free card.

66 might hang in there til the showdown, but if you're betting out every street, I'd say there's a pretty good chance he folds (if not on the flop, then when he misses his OESD on the river).

[JEM7VSBL]

you bet the flop every time. you've got the best position right now, so use it! betting here lets you take a free card on the turn, improve on the turn and bet some more, or just fire again if the turn's a blank.

[StellarWind]

I think the flop check is fine. You do not have the best hand against four limpers with this board. Nor are you going to get many useful folds in an aquarium. Why spend money protecting someone else's hand? It is true that you have 11.5 outs but it is also true that they are garbage. The backdoor flush is good but everything else is pretty dirty.

You could drag out the tired old free card argument, but the actual turn shows one of the many pitfalls. You wind up paying for something that was going to be free anyway.

The turn bet is bad. Everything I said about the flop still applies but things have gotten worse. You are behind jacks, tens, nines, eights, sevens, and pocket pairs with four limpers. A destructive checkraise is a definite possibility. Take the free card and hope it helps you get paid when you improve on the river.

No way is the calling station letting go on the river when AK doesn't make.

[xxxxx]

Good to see a difference of opinion. On the turn I'm counting eighteen outs of varying degrees of cleanliness. I figure I could bet for value. Didn't expect to get only one caller. I don't think anyone has two pair or better at the moment but I could be reverse dominated by A-7 or something.

Winning with ace high is what you do playing $80-$160 and are head's up. Trying to get calling stations to fold is a tough way to make a living.

[bugstud]

I like to bet the flop trying to see a free river on this type of board

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I'm dealt A /images/graemlins/heart.gif- Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the button.

The flop is J-9-8 rainbow with one heart. Checked around to me. I check through. I don't really have anything.



[/ QUOTE ]

Don't have anything? You have overcards, a backdoor flush draw, and a gutshot. You raised PF and no one 3-bet you. You could very well have the best hand even with ace high, if everyone checked to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

But that doesn't mean that you should bet on a board when the chances of your taking the pot down now are, like zero.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to bet the flop trying to see a free river on this type of board

[/ QUOTE ]
The flop is J98 with four loose/passive limpers. Why do you think you will need a showdown if you don't improve? Will these passive players even bet the turn if you have the best hand? On the actual deal checking got a free card on the turn that really was free.

This hand is nearly a pure draw with no chance to win unimproved. As a draw I count 6 effective outs:

Overcards = 2 (queen makes 4-straight; reverse domination; flopped straights and two-pairs; redraws to straight, two-pair, and trips)

Ten = 3 (chopping with other queens, KQ)

Backdoor Flush = 1 (for betting purposes)

[MAxx]

i'm on autobet often on flops so i would have bet this flop... not that that makes it right.

i am betting flop- because i have overcards and a backdoor, and nobody has demonstrated interest in the hand yet. My flop bet is for several reasons:


1) i would rather take a free turn card than a free flop card.

2) if i get c/r'd, i will be better prepared to bail on turn unless its a very nice card for me.

3) i could be building the pot for my ace

4) or i could possibly put out someone who would have otherwise had the best hand at showdown- perhaps this is very slim.

1) is most important imo, b/c there are many turns that i do not really wanna checkcall with this board... but may have to. It is so much easier to play the turn after betting the flop.

That being said.... i am taking the freebie on the turn.

Betting this river against a station would be throwing away money.