Like this play?

[ilya]

A Party $10, getting my confidence back after a shaky 200 at the $20s.

Sorry about the format; like some others I'm having trouble with the converter.

Table Table 11507 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 5: JeffG113415 ( $750 )
Seat 6: ELEV84U ( $335 )
Seat 10: slackie ( $1750 )
Seat 2: skidwilly ( $300 )
Seat 7: mrzarembsky ( $1115 )
Seat 1: dargon99 ( $1375 )
Seat 4: N0Bluff4Real ( $1635 )
Seat 8: nachos3 ( $740 )
Trny:8205745 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to mrzarembsky [ Ad Kd ]
nachos3 calls [30].
slackie calls [30].
dargon99 raises [60].
skidwilly calls [60].
N0Bluff4Real folds.
JeffG113415 folds.
ELEV84U folds.
mrzarembsky calls [30].
nachos3 calls [30].
slackie calls [30].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, 4s, Th ] ::5-HANDED, 300 POT::
mrzarembsky checks.
nachos3 bets [30].
slackie folds.
dargon99 calls [30].
skidwilly calls [30].
mrzarembsky raises [180].

[Sidekick]

I'll toss in my opinion here.

I would have raised preflop to about 210, to either take down the pot right there or thin the field to hopefully get it heads up.

Since there are so many players seeing the flop, I would either lead out on the flop for about half the pot and hope to take it down or I'd check fold this (I'd lean towards the check fold with that many people seeing the flop). If I get a caller or two on the flop then I wouldn't bet again unless I hit my A or K. If I'm reraised I let the hand go. It's early in the tournament and with that many people in the pot I would think you are behind to someone's trash hand that hit, two pair, set or even quads.

With that many people seeing the flop and with that board, I'd be inclined to let this hand go and wait for a better opportunity.

[adanthar]

As the BB in a low buyin tourney and with no one showing much if any strength...I think I go all in PF and hope AJ calls.

But since this is a low buyin tourney, you're not getting anything, including a middle pair or a T, to fold. If there's anything I've noticed when slumming in the Step 1's, it's that a lot of people limp AK and then try to buy the pot when they miss. Bad move.

[texasrattlers]

What are you trying to accomplish with your bet /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
What are you trying to accomplish with your bet /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to win the pot right there.

[lacky]

I will limp with AK early in a tourney now and then also. But then I treat it as any other drawing hand. If I hit, I hope to take a lower kickers stack. If I miss, I can get out of the hand dirt cheap. You cant let everyone in hoping to trap, then play your overcards strong when u miss. They aren't any good anymore. You are almost always up against a pair, and you turn your cheap draw into an expensive draw, drawing very thin.

Steve

[SuitedSixes]

I agree, bigger pre-flop raise. With that many callers, you either have to check-fold the flop or make a probe bet to see where you stand.

[morgan180]

Hey Mr. Z,

At the 10s a min raise with callers doesn't mean a whole lot. These people min-raise with anything. Re-raise this to about 150-175. You not going to be up against much here that you wouldn't want to see.

Even with skidwilly's cold call I wouldn't worry (his stack size this early [300] suggests he's not the tightest player.) /sarcasm/

Now if there is a re-raise all-in with another caller you most likely want to fold, but even then you'll most likely be up against stuff that you dominate (AQ/AJ) or a coin flip (77/QQ). Although I probably pass here since at the 10s there will be plenty of money (usually) to get their chips.


JMHO

[Scuba Chuck]

Mr Z,

I think a lot of good advice here. At any level, raise the darn pot to something big PF. And at lower levels, I advocate going all-in. Being in the BB, you couldn't have asked for any more information on the table than what you got. Besides 7 callers at 30 chips - 210 total winning chips - Not a bad day for AK if everyone folds. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

You guarantee a lost hand post flop if you don't hit, and if you do hit, you might not get one caller, so all of the betting needs to be made PF.

PS - hand converter. It looks to me like you're trying to input data from your hand history files stored on your hard drive. The Bisonbison converter only works with HHs emailed to you. If I notice a hand I want to discuss, I usually request a copy of the last hand immediately sent to me via email.

just some Scuba cents...

[PrayingMantis]

If you decide to cold call PF with these many players in, you are looking for a flop you like, or otherwise it's an auto check-fold post-flop. There's very little point in trying to take this pot down *post-flop*, with all these people around at a low buy-in SNG, when you've practically hit nothing (of course you could be ahead here, but there's a very big chance you're behind, so why even test it?).

There are basically 2 options when such a hand developes in this kind of buy-in:

1. In a multi-way PF pot, with a lot of limpers and miniraisers, pushing from BB is not a bad idea at all. You'll be called many times with dominated and other bad hands, to "compensate" for the times you're called with all kinds of small PPs. And of course, there's always a chance (although quite small here) of taking the pot right there. Then you don't need to see a flop (which you'll miss most of the time), against a bunch of limpers who can have anything, and as it's NL, your AKs is practically garbage post-flop too many times.

2. Slow play it PF, with the option of winning a great pot once you hit, BUT giving it up pretty much immidiately if it does not hit you.

Any combination of 1 and 2 is not a very good option. That's why I think your play is very problematic, as you apply aggressiveness in the wrong place, i.e, when it's practically too late (and also probably too weak to achieve much, in such circumstances).

[ilya]

Ok, none of you seem to understand that I played this hand well, so I guess I'll try to explain why that's true /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Preflop...I can fold, call, raise, or push.
I don't like folding all that much.
I don't like pushing much either, considering that I have 1115 chips when it gets back to me, i.e. 5.3xpot (210). It may be true that people at the $10s don't like folding underpairs on the flop (as someone suggested), but they are even less fond of folding medium pairs preflop against an all-in. "I put you on overcards" and all that. Why would I want to risk my whole (above-average) stack here when I'm confident that I'm a better bubble player than most of my opponents?
Raising is the 3rd option. If I raise, one of 3 things may happen: I may win the pot immediately - possible, but IMO not very likely considering the minraise from a big stack; I may get re-raised, which would be very unpleasant - I want to call all-in even less than I want to push; and finally, I may get flat-called. The problem with this last scenario is that because of the minraise, the callers, and my re-raise, the pot is now quite large. Say I reraise to 220, the early limpers fold, the big stack calls, and the small stack behind him folds. The pot is now 560, and I have 895 chips. Now if I miss the flop, I don't know what to do. I don't want to let the large pot go - but I can barely take a stab without going all-in, especially if the flop is 2-suited. And I really don't want to risk my whole stack on a weak out-of-position semi-bluff.
In calling, I'm getting 7:1 immediate odds on a hand that can flop some monster draws. I'm also keeping the pot small enough that, if an A or K does come and someone decides to call me with a flush draw, I may be able to get away on the turn if I'm convinced they made their hand. I am also reducing my volatility. And with my stack already large enough to steal blinds come bubble time, I like that.

When the flop came 44T rainbow (giving me two overcards and a backdoor nut flush draw), I decided to check and see what everyone else would do. I don't think many people would argue that I should bet here, and neither would I, so I'll just skip that.
When UTG bet the minimun and didn't get raised, I thought that either
a, no one could beat a pair of tens with an Ace or King kicker or
b, two people couldn't and one was slow-playing trips or a full house or AA/KK.
I felt that the former possibility was more likely. I thought it extremely unlikely that either the preflop raiser or the late position caller, who cold-called 60 for 20% of his stack, had a single 4. UTG could have A4s, but I felt that even in the unlikely case he did have it, he would probably have checked it to the preflop raiser.
Next I had to consider the possibility that someone was slow-playing a full house or AA-KK. I thought only the OR was at all likely to have TT. The LP short stack would likely have pushed his last 300 into the 165 pot preflop, as $10 players with medium pairs are wont to do. There was no hint preflop that UTG didn't have TT (aside from the limp perhaps -- many players would raise/re-raise with TT), but again, I thought that he would check such a strong hand to the OR. As for the OR, I thought it was possible that he had the Tens. I also thought he might have had a big pair; minraising with them is popular. I thought there was a slight chance the LP caller had a big pair, and little chance that UTG had one.
Finally, I thought that they would fold 55-99 and perhaps a hand like JT/T9 to a check-raise. I didn't think they would give me credit for a 4, but I did think they would me credit for a fairly strong T. Crucially, because the flop was 3-suited and very ragged, I didn't have to worry about flush/straight draws.
When I weighed all this, I felt that my chance of taking the pot right there was considerably better than 34%. And that's why I made that half-pot checkraise.

But I want to be clear: this is NOT how I usually play AK. I just thought that the pattern of betting & the look of the flop combined to create a rare situation where bluffing with AK multiway would be profitable.

[Irieguy]

I don't have a problem with only calling the min. raise preflop if your plan is to either flop big or fold. But you really don't want to play AK for implied odds preflop, and then change your mind and play it for value post-flop.

If you want to invest chips with AK in level 2, then you want to invest them when you are likely to be ahead. So, raise big preflop and play the hand short-handed. If you are the kind of player that wants to stay out of trouble early in a SNG (smart player), then your big post-flop raise with nothing should not be a part of your repetoire.

If your argument is that you will frequently win pots at that table with a big post-flop raise, then you should be limping with any two and raising big with premium hands. Since that is not the normal table tendency for a $11 SNG, you should rarely be attempting this play.

Irieguy

[morgan180]

I do like the check raise here. It represents trips nicely and the min-bet/calls in between your check-raise just seem like people who don't think much of the flop hoping to catch their cards on the turn. (at $10 anyway)

I was just saying that I would probably raise the min-raise, however you raise a good point about calling an all-in from someone who min-raised a QQ/KK/AA hand just looking to pop a reraise ... your line in this example is an intriguing one.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
It represents trips nicely

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't win low buy-in SNGs by "representing" hands in multi-way pots, post flop, or in any other stage. That's part of the problem in this whole play and line of thinking. In this situation post-flop, this not-so-scary check-raise will be called by many players that simply think that their hand is good enough (all kinds of PPs, for instance), and it is, unfortunately, actually better than an unimproved AKs.

You don't "represent" hands in low buy in SNGs, for the same reason you don't bluff there (generally). These tactics work against better opposition.

[morgan180]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't win low buy-in SNGs by "representing" hands in multi-way pots, post flop, or in any other stage. That's part of the problem in this whole play and line of thinking. In this situation post-flop, this not-so-scary check-raise will be called by many players that simply think that their hand is good enough (all kinds of PPs, for instance), and it is, unfortunately, actually better than an unimproved AKs.

You don't "represent" hands in low buy in SNGs, for the same reason you don't bluff there (generally). These tactics work against better opposition.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're right - the moment I re-read that I thought - wait a second - most people playing against you here would have no idea what you were trying to do - they'd be oblivious to it.

Great point.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It represents trips nicely

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't win low buy-in SNGs by "representing" hands in multi-way pots, post flop, or in any other stage. That's part of the problem in this whole play and line of thinking. In this situation post-flop, this not-so-scary check-raise will be called by many players that simply think that their hand is good enough (all kinds of PPs, for instance), and it is, unfortunately, actually better than an unimproved AKs.

You don't "represent" hands in low buy in SNGs, for the same reason you don't bluff there (generally). These tactics work against better opposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mantis, I must respectfully disagree. I think most $10 players fold 55-99 to my check-raise. Loose as they may be, I think they can fold a pair that's drawing virtually dead against any hand I might be representing.
I think a key thing about this hand is that there are no flush/straight draws possible on the flop. A large part of low-limit players' looseness is their love of convincing themselves that their opponents are on a draw. Here, my opponents can't do that.

This is a small point, but I think it also helps that I was in the BB in this hand. In my experience, loose low-limit players are a little more ready to give the BB credit for a big hand on a ragged board, simply because they remember those many times when they themselves flopped a "Big Blind special" after making a loose call.

[adanthar]

Dude, you're *way* overthinking what your opponents are going to do. At the $10's, their thought process goes like this: "I have a T (or a 4) so I'll call".

This also illustrates why you probably should've just pushed. Pushing in a big limpfest like that with AKs is definitely +EV - maybe just a coinflip with a bit of overlay but still +EV. A good chunk of that EV comes from the fact that you're unbluffable and can't make a bad decision postflop. This here - trying to bluff out 5 limpers in a low buyin - is pretty bad.

PS: If somebody calls and the turn is an A, do you check/fold to any significant bet? Because if you don't, you've turned a pretty bad play into a horrible one (and I guarantee 90% of the people that read this thread can't fold there).

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, you're *way* overthinking what your opponents are going to do. At the $10's, their thought process goes like this: "I have a T (or a 4) so I'll call".

This also illustrates why you probably should've just pushed. Pushing in a big limpfest like that with AKs is definitely +EV - maybe just a coinflip with a bit of overlay but still +EV. A good chunk of that EV comes from the fact that you're unbluffable and can't make a bad decision postflop. This here - trying to bluff out 5 limpers in a low buyin - is pretty bad.

PS: If somebody calls and the turn is an A, do you check/fold to any significant bet? Because if you don't, you've turned a pretty bad play into a horrible one (and I guarantee 90% of the people that read this thread can't fold there).

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be right. However, I'd like to point out that when I made my check-raise, there were 3 other people left in the hand -- not 5, as you write. Also, I understand that my opponents are calling/raising with any 4 and many Tens (I think, by the way, there are plenty of $10 players who are capable of folding a weak Ten to my check-raise). I did not check-raise because I was 100% sure that no one had a 4 or a Ten or some other hand that they would call me with. I check-raised because I was more than 34% sure that this was the case. I think that if you consider my analysis, you may agree that I was justified in having this limited level of confidence.

I rarely bluff at the $10s. I have not been convinced that this hand was not a good time to make an exception.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, you're *way* overthinking what your opponents are going to do. At the $10's, their thought process goes like this: "I have a T (or a 4) so I'll call".

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are even over-thinking what the typical $10 is going to do. Their thought process actually goes like this:
"ummmmmm. Call."

Ilya has said in this thread that $10 players are capable of folding small-medium pairs to a check-raise here. He even says that some $10 will fold a weak 10 here. Those are highly inaccurate assumptions. 90% of $10 players will go all the way on this hand with any pair, and 99% of them will certainly go all the way with any 10.

If this play "worked," Ilya, then it wasn't because you got somebody to lay down a pair. Your poker logic is not "bad," it's just wrong for this setting because many of your alternatives for the play of this hand are more +EV than your line.

Irieguy

[Jason Strasser]

Ok, I'll toss in my 2 cents.

A big reason, in my book, why lower buy in sngs are so profitable is because people tend to hold onto marginal hands incorrectly.

Preflop, in a tough crowd of sng players I would like this move preflop. But you need to have a different mindset in lower buy in sngs. I actually think everyone who says that cold calling is acceptable preflop is wrong. Think about all the hands that are involved. Maybe low pocket pairs, maybe hands like A3o, maybe hands like J9s, and on and on. So you need to be trained to make a nice sized (not huge) raise preflop for value, and mucking postflop if it is multihanded when you miss. If you are HU on the flop, I think taking a shot most of the time is a good thing. You can take shots with ace high in multi-way pots I suppose, but it has to be something you do with some sort of read or feel for the table.

On the flop, your trickiness is unneccessary. You will simply get called by hands you beat too often to make your bluff profitable. Sure, they MAY fold 55-99, but they certainly will not always fold 55-99. There is also a possibility you have run into a made hand that deserves a call.

All in all, I admire you for your creativity... But if you want to defend your play, you'll have a tough time because to me it looks like you are spewing chips.

-Jason

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Mantis, I must respectfully disagree. I think most $10 players fold 55-99 to my check-raise. Loose as they may be, I think they can fold a pair that's drawing virtually dead against any hand I might be representing.
I think a key thing about this hand is that there are no flush/straight draws possible on the flop. A large part of low-limit players' looseness is their love of convincing themselves that their opponents are on a draw. Here, my opponents can't do that.

This is a small point, but I think it also helps that I was in the BB in this hand. In my experience, loose low-limit players are a little more ready to give the BB credit for a big hand on a ragged board, simply because they remember those many times when they themselves flopped a "Big Blind special" after making a loose call.

[/ QUOTE ]

ilya, don't get me wrong, I think your thinking process in regard to what your opponents in this hand _hold_, is good, as you put it in this thread. However, I think that, as others have pointed too, in your thinking with regard to what they will _do_ with their hands, you are going here against one of the main characterstics of these low buy-in games: people call way too much.

You say that you can see most $10 players folding 55-99 to your move here, but I strongly believe you are overestimating the regular $10 player. Sure, *some* of them will fold, but IMO, most of them won't, especially not to such a check-raise, which isn't really big, and does not make it too expensive for them (i'm not even talking about a T here, which I think will call you here about %100 of the time).

Look at it this way: What is another characteristic of these low buy-in SNGs? The fact that there are many multi-way pots, sometimes with raises and reraises PF, which many times do not thin the field at all. This secondary characterstic is a direct result of the first one: i.e, people are calling too much.

And, in this hand, you see this exact phenomenon taking place PF. So why do you think it will change post-flop? People who call too much, call too much PF, on the flop, turn and river. Sure they are more willing to throw away garbage hands that missed the board _completely_, but when the board is paired, pocket-pairs usually look very good, and so is, of course, a lone card that pairs with one of the flop cards, as the T here.

In higher buy-ins, people are less willing to call so much, and so you see less multi-way pots, and, of course, you are more able to use tactics as representing a hand (that's also because there are less people in the pot to begin with).

(A paradoxical point, is that in high buy-ins your "represenation" of a hand might look too much like a representaion, and people will not fall into it too easily. That's why betting into the field when you hit a strong hand, as opposed to check-raising, can work so well. The result of this is that represenging trips by check-raising like you did here, probably works best against weak-tight predictable opponents, who are usually playing the mid-level buy-ins, more than the lowest and the highest).

[texasrattlers]

[ QUOTE ]
But you need to have a different mindset in lower buy in sngs. I actually think everyone who says that cold calling is acceptable preflop is wrong. Think about all the hands that are involved. Maybe low pocket pairs, maybe hands like A3o, maybe hands like J9s, and on and on.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the low pocket pairs that concern me preflop w/ AK. If you were to re-raise, the player who has pocket pairs is liable to go all in, at least at the $10 Stars SNGs. And of course you don't want a coin flip for all your chips this early in the tourney.

[ilya]

Thanks to Mantis, Strassa, Irie, adanthar, and everyone else who took the time to post some comments. The overwhelming consensus seems to be that my play was too fancy for a $10 buy-in, essentially because it involved giving my opponents much too much credit. Kind of a depressing lesson to learn, in a broad humanistic sense. But useful for the bottom line!

Thanks again.

[pooh74]

I read most of the replies and don't know if this was pointed out but I don't see why the fact that he has AK is even a part of this equation. IOW, Ilya is bascially bluffing at a flop with nothing... AK=72...yes, he is ahead of AJ at this point but with so many callers this point is moot.

[adanthar]

Actually, if anything it's worse than 72 because of what I alluded to earlier: if he's called, he can dump 72 when a 7 hits the turn. If he's tempted to call a substantial bet when an A comes on the turn or river, the play probably loses him the SNG.

(Not picking on you, ilya. Us Russians have to stick together /images/graemlins/smile.gif )