Bad use of "Stop and Go"?

[SpeakEasy]

Live NL tournament in Kansas City, $100 buy-in, 60 players start, 6 get paid. 1000 in chips to start. We are down to about 33 players, 7 at my table. Blind structure rises very rapidly, every 20 minutes, so there is no futzing around. The tournament becomes an all-in-or-fold fest after about 2 hours at the 7th level because of the blind structure.

I am the big stack at the table, around 2800. I picked up some pots early, showing some solid hands. Since that time I played the big-stack bully, raising often in position and winning about 2 out of 3 pots PF that I raise.

We are at the 6th level, blinds are 75-150, 7 players at the table. I get A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the BB. UTG calls. UTG+1 calls; he has around 1400 and is a solid player. UTG+2 raises to 500; he has around 1900 and has been tight, not playing many hands. SB folds. I call, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls. Pot is 1725.

Flop is 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I move all in.

Comments?

[willie]

i don't particularly like using it in this situation since that flop is pretty bad for you, you have no draw, no pair, ace high

pair of tens up to aces is instacalling as well as anyone who has 2 overs with a flush draw.

i think you had to get your stack hurt here 3 way...interested to see if everyone folded to ya though.

[SossMan]

what's the preflop raiser's stack size? if it's less than 1500, i'm pushing/folding preflop. I don't really want to play this hand out of position vs. three players.

[Lloyd]

Technically speaking, this isn't a stop and go. A stop and go is where you are in EP (particularly the blinds), are facing a raise, and want to play the hand for all your chips but don't have enough to make the raiser fold if you push because of the pot odds. You just call the bet with the intention of pushing on any flop. The hope is that he misses the flop and will fold to your flop push and not see the turn and river (thus losing out on 2 cards that could improve his hand).

For example, you're in the SB w/TT and a stack of T1000. The blinds are 100/200. The button raises to T600. If you re-raise all-in he'd have to call T400 with a pot of T1800, getting 4.5 to 1 odds. He'd call that raise even if on a total bluff. So instead, you call and even if the flop is AKQ suited you lead out with your remaining T400 on the flop. If you're beat, it's the same as going all-in pre-flop but gives you the chance to win by him folding if he doesn't like the flop (and taking away 2 cards that could help his hand and draw out on you).

In this situation, you simply decided to flat call the raise which isn't necessarily a bad move. But by calling, you are giving very good odds to the MP limpers so they should probably call as well creating a multi-way pot and having poor position. This can often lead to problems.

By pushing, you are representing either something like A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif or A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif, or a small over pair like TT or JJ. If you had QQ, KK, or AA you probably would have raised pre-flop. Ignoring UTG+1 for a second, by pushing you are giving 2.23 to 1 odds to the UTG+2 raiser (1400 to win 3125). Those are pretty good odds. He will certainly call if he has two spades. He will certainly call if he has an overpair. He doesn't quite have odds to call if he's holding AK (other than A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif) but if he factors in the possibility of you being on a bluff that would make the call correct (and it might be correct if he has the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif or the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif and an overcard).

I can't imagine (especially based on your reads) that he would make that raise with a pair lower than 9 or at least AK/AQ. That would make 30 hands of possible overpairs, 3 hands of a set of 9s, 6 hands of AK with at least the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif or K /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6 hands of AK without the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif or K /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3 hands of A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQx, and 6 hands of AQ without the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif. So, there are 42 hands he'll probably call you with and be ahead, 6 hands he might call you with and be ahead, 3 hands he might call you with and be even but with the nut flush draw, and 3 hands he probably won't call you with and be tied.

Bottom line, unless he has AK or AQ without a spade he is probably going to call you. Now factor in the possibility that UTG+1 has a piece of the flop and this is a clear check-fold unless improved on the turn or river.

[HoldingFolding]

Lloyd, you are one lucid dude. If I didn't feel I was learning so much from your posts, your incisiveness would have convinced me I don't stand a chance and I'd give up. But then I guess I don't have to worry about running into you at the $10 SNGs. Excellent post.

[sdplayerb]

yes it is. your cold prices in the limpers, making a stop n go much much less effective.
it is push or fold, i opt for fold.

you say that one guy is solid, if he is limping 2nd for over 10% of his stack, he is not solid.

[zaxx19]

If he is solid why dont you just muck the AQ>..???

I find that this is how I get myself in trouble alot of the times with a large stack..just not being able to let got of hands like AQ, 10-10, 9-9....

[sdplayerb]

now that you know that is an issue, stop doing it.
realize when you make these mistakes it was worthwhile if it allows you to analyze it and correct your mistake.

[m bozeman]

Moving all-in there with that flop, against that player, is a bad decision. If he is a tight player, he probably has a pocket pair or AK. Sure, if he has AK, he might lay it down to your all-in, but if he calls, you are drawing thin; no straight or flush draws, just your overcards, which may be dominated.

Check, see what the players do, and decide from there. You have a decent stack built up, why risk it here with that move, out of position, with no hand?

[SpeakEasy]

UTG+1 folded. UTG+2 called with QQ. No Ace came, and I was cooked. Crippled for the remainder of the tourney, I doubled up once, then out in about 17th place.

This was a horrible play on my part. This is why I still call myself a student of poker.

My logic at the time: I felt (incorrectly) that UTG+2 had AK, AQ, possibly AJ. When I called the raise, I thought "I'm all in with an Ace or Queen on the flop, or if its raggedy. They may think I hit a set, or think I have have a bigger overpair if either has a pocket pair. They are risking their tournament by calling, since I have the bigger stack." I was also slightly hypnotized by the temptingly large pot, combined with my bully status at the table. If I had won that pot, I felt I had a decent shot to at least make the final table with more well-timed steals.

Why this was all wrong:
1. For all the reasone that Lloyd superbly explained. I've thought through the hand thoroughly (afterward). They probably only lay down overcards (AK, AQ, etc.). Either one probably calls with any overpair, although TT or JJ may be a tough call.

2. Wrong situation to try the "stop and go." My situation fit all of the criteria that Lloyd explained, except for the criteria that I didn't have enough to make the raiser fold if I went all-in pre-flop. For this reason alone, all-in pre-flop might have been the superior play (not a good play here, but simply better than the way I played it) -- although UTG+2 very likely would have called with QQ.

3. My play doesn't work against more than one opponent. Much higher probability that I am beat by at least one of their hands with an overpair, and that hand is probably calling my bet on the flop.

4. Although he later folded, I priced UTG+1 into an excellent situation to go all-in pre-flop. UTG+2 probably would have called, and then I'd be priced into a call pre-flop also, which would be just horrible with AQ. I'd be a coin-flip against an underpair, and dominated by QQ, KK or AA or AK. Ugh.

Learn from your mistakes, and don't make them again.

[Zinzan]

Nice post, Lloyd.

But your example of holding a pair of tens... I'd point out a stop-n-go can be done with any two cards. In fact, I'm more likely to use the stop-n-go if I *don't* have anything.

Also, I never attempt a stop-n-go in a multiplayer situation--only heads-up. Maybe it can work, but I would think it would reduce the effectiveness of the play substantially.

In general, I use a stop-n-go when I'm in the blinds with a very small stack*, feel the raiser is likely on a steal (or a late limper just wants a peek at the flop), I don't have any folding equity preflop, and I don't particularly care for my hand. If I have something as good as TT, I'm pushing, as I think I've likely got the best hand and want to bet when I know he'll call.

I'm less likely to use the stop-n-go if I believe the other player is strong.

-Z

*Especially if my stack is so small that losing these chips would significantly cripple me (e.g. blinds are 400/800 and I'm in the BB with t1200 total, the CO limps, and it's folded to me; or blinds are 150/300, I'm in the BB with t850 total, folded to aggressive button who min. raises).

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
My logic at the time: I felt (incorrectly) that UTG+2 had AK, AQ, possibly AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why did you not consider a pair? It's dangerous to put your opponent on such a narrow range of hands.

[ QUOTE ]
When I called the raise, I thought "I'm all in with an Ace or Queen on the flop, or if its raggedy.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's great that you have a plan for the flop prior to seeing it although it doesn't seem like you to stuck to it. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[ QUOTE ]
or think I have have a bigger overpair if either has a pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think if you really had a big pair you'd re-raise pre-flop.

[ QUOTE ]
They are risking their tournament by calling

[/ QUOTE ]
True, but it seems like you're getting to the point where people will have to take some risks, even in marginal situations. So if they get a decent piece of the flop or have an overpair they will most certainly call.

[ QUOTE ]
For this reason alone, all-in pre-flop might have been the superior play (not a good play here, but simply better than the way I played it) -- although UTG+2 very likely would have called with QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously he would have called with QQ. But more importantly, you've got a hand that is very easily dominated and not one that I want to risk a lot of chips with after people have already entered the pot. I don't mind playing AQs because of the flush value, but you have to be able to get off the hand when dominated.

[DonButtons]

Terrible play. Next time think of what hands UTG might have and what mp might have before actually doing the play.

Also, make your read before the flop comes, because I see too many people trying to make reads based on the flop outcome.

[patrick dicaprio]

not enough info, but assuming that your opponents are typical for this type of game it seems to me that your opponent will usually call here. the pot is large enough that if he has a medium pair he knows there is a chance his hand is good. he is getting a little over 2-1 odds on a call and even is he has AK he may call anyway. i would push here preflop if i wasnt folding and calling is probably the worst option but i am open to the possiblility that it isnt.

Pat

[patrick dicaprio]

Re: your use of the stop and go in the blinds: this is mostly when i use it.

Pat

[woodguy]

Great post Lloyd.

If anyone is having trouble understanding the concept of the stop n' go, here is an example:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP (t2535)
Button (t2805)
SB (t1200)
Hero (t875)
UTG (t585)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t200</font>, SB folds, Hero calls t100.

Flop: (t450) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t675 (All-In)</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: t1125

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
No showdown. Hero wins t1125. </font>

Regards,
Woodguy