Can't beat 'em....Join 'em

After years of not being able to get ahead on Paradise Poker, my friends and I have decided that we are victims of collusion. We have seen plenty of obvious cheating that has not been caught. We believe that ALL of the winning 20/40 regulars are cheating. They are just very good at it and so they won't get caught. We don't believe that Paradise Poker does anything proactive to stop this. With their alleged high tech methods of detecting team play, why do we always have to report cheaters to them? They always say they were "in the process" of monitoring these people's play but coincidentally they never have just banned them. It is only after we report them that they are banned. We have come to the conclusion that PP is not up to the task of policing their games.


To prove this, we are going to begin cheating in all levels of games from .5/1 up to 10/20. We will stay away from 15/30 and 20/40...due to our observations we feel there are already enough teams playing at those limits. We will not stop unless we are banned, if they don't catch us we will eventually accumulate enough money to take on the existing teams at the higher limits. We have observed them and feel that these are not exceptional players (with the exception of URMeowed who we feel is a very talented player), they just have an almost unlimited bankroll that they all share and they cheat just enough to ensure that they will win. The only real skill that any of these players seem to have is the ability to bully short stacks one-on-one on the heads up tables. This is obviously very easy to do when you have a $20K bankroll to draw from and your opponent has a few hundred dollars.


In short, the innocent masses are going to unknowingly finance our assault on the cheaters of the internet poker world.


We have all put in many hours already over the last year or so and should be beyond suspicion. We will not make any moves that will compromise our cheating. We will be just as chatty as always. Just your average every day low limit players out to have a social game of poker. We will pick our spots where our play will benefit us but will look reasonable. We will also be using four different accounts. We will play at the same table as another member of our cartel only about half the time. At no point will three of us be in the same game. About half of the time each of us will be playing "alone". We will communicate via cell phone non-stop during our collusive play. Due to our jobs 3 of us have unlimited cellular calling plans so our cost of doing this will be zero. The one of us without the cell phone has a separate land line into his home exclusively for internet connection. None of us are related or live in the same city although we all live within 40 miles of each other.


We are all very good poker players and believe we can cheat in a way that our opponents will not detect. We have established predetermined guidelines for when we will and will not make moves. We all are regular winners at local brick and mortar card rooms, we all win on annual trips to Vegas, and we all win at the lower limits on PP. It isn't until we get to the higher levels that we are being scammed. We believe there are plenty of cheaters at the lower limits but they are just not very good at it so it can be overcome by good players. We are confident that PP will not detect anything based on our experiences of being on the receiving end of cheating for years.


We don't want to do this. We are being forced to fight fire with fire. Paradise Poker has failed to provide a safe playing environment and it is now kill or be killed. We are good guys and have agreed to donate all of the proceeds from our experiment to charity. We apologize in advance to those adversely affected by this but in reality we feel we are providing a public service. At least with us your money will go to a good cause instead of being put to selfish use by the cheaters.


We all feel we have nothing to lose...if by some chance we get caught (very unlikely) we are only losing the ability to play in crooked games anyway. Just like the cheaters we will face no legal action and don't even run the risk of getting our asses kicked in the parking lot.


Let the games begin!!!!!!!!!!!!

... what are your playing names so we can watch?

... on the assumption that these cheap crooks mean what they say, might I suggest we all make a point of not staying on any one table for more than, say, twenty minutes?


I have sent a copy of these low-lifes' post to Paradise, and I assume that Mr Malmuth can trace where the post came from, and will similarly inform Paradise.

Fine...get us banned if you can. That would at least show that PP has some ability to stop cheating. We aren't the bad guys. We are only doing this to try to stop the cheating...the fact that we have to become cheats ourselves to accomplish this is incidental.

1) "We aren't the bad guys. We are only doing this to try to stop the cheating..."

Consider this "I think my police force can not control homocide, therefore I am going on a killing spree to show their ineffectiveness". It doesn't make sense to detest something, then go and do it! /images/biggrin.gif Devote your time to stopping cheating. Don't criticise PP if you can't offer a better sugestion.


2) How do you plan to cheat? The one reason why I am not scared off from Paradise, is that I can't really see how people can team play that effectively in Hold 'em, versus a decent player.

Can you give me some examples of how me, an absolute rock, tight aggressive, worst nightmare type player will be colluded out of cash?


Miles...So What?

Your main problem is that you are not very good at cheating. You prove this by pointing out that there will never be three of you in one game. I don't mind when two players are colluding in a game that i'm in. It's when 5 players are colluding in my game that i'm drawing dead.


Cheating on the level that allegedly is happening, is a very big project. It's not something you just decide to do one day and phone up your friend and say "hey...lets cheat" First, you have to learn how to cheat. This is not easy. Colluding is not about whipsawing people. This alone would take very intelligent people to devise a game plan. Nothing personal, but you do not have a grasp of strategy. Second, you have to figure out how not to get caught. For you, this is not a problem as you dont seem to care. But, for those that are allegedly cheating at PP, this requires alot of thought. Third, you have to figure out a way to split the money, assuming you are sucessful. Cheats are not trustworthy by nature, and this presents a host of other problems.


One would have to ask if it is really worth it? It's lot of work for someone that can beat the game already to go through. If you cannot beat the game on your own, you cannot possibly figure out how to collude succesfully.


Paradise does have its problems. I'm sure there is collusion going on at the higher limits, but how good they are, and how long they will be there are different questions.


Adam.

******The only real skill that any of these players seem to have is the ability to bully short stacks one-on-one on the heads up tables. This is obviously very easy to do when you have a $20K bankroll to draw from and your opponent has a few hundred dollars.*****


I am curious-- regarding this part of your post.


1. How does "one" have a 20K bankroll with which to begin? You state that the only skill is in having the bankroll- and using it to bully your opponent. Presumably- it seems to me that there are two possible ways one could have this large of a bankroll. a)Win the money playing on-line poker b)Deposit the money via western union etc. (i.e. the money was made through other endeavors)


You have obviously disregarded the "poker" skill of the player with the large bankroll as inconsequential. So- you're telling us that- no matter how bad the player-- as long as he has the bankroll- and can bully other smaller stacks-- he will continue to be successful online. Game selection- hand reading ability- psychology- poker skill- are all irrelevant according to you.

As long as he continues to play heads up-- and has a significantly bigger bankroll than his opponent?


Thanks for your response

To be fair to them, they said that they got free calls on their cellphones through work. Incidentally, I've been playing on Paradise since February and am without doubt still a losing player, but yesterday I played a lot of $1-$2 and actually won quite a bit (or what a player of my limited ability considers quite a bit!). Coincidetally I also started using pokerstat yesterday, and from the data I collected there were one or two players who made a significant amount of money (I'm talking the $100 range, which I believe is a fairly large amount in a typical session at a $1-$2 table, others will undoubtedly tell me I'm wrong). Anyway maybe you weren't in any of the games I was in, but adding any three players winnings together the most profit I can see is $375. One of those three players is me, and the other two weren't even at the same table a lot of the time! I played around nine hours and saw absoloutely no evidence of any profitable collusion, just the usual round of bad play and horrendous beats which are typical of $1-$2 on Paradise. Anyway it would be interesting to hear from anyone else who played $1-$2 yesterday: Did you notice any BIG winners, See any suspicious plays? Or is this all one big joke by Mysteryman?

There are no REAL excuses to be dishonest, mystery man.

"We will communicate via cell phone non-stop during our collusive play."


LOL!


Personally, my collusion buddies and I like to communicate via ham radio, using Morse code.


To all you people out there taking this post seriously, you need to up your scepticism a little.


Chris

We know how to cheat. We have over 50 years of winning poker experience among us. Whipsawwing is a very small part of what we do but can be effective in the right spots. We will incorporate different collusion techniques depending on the style of play of our opponents. Many times your advantage can be something as simple as knowing two more cards that are out and understanding how this affects your odds of hitting your hand or your opponents odds of hitting his. We won't get caught unless Paradise's "amazing technology" sniffs us out. We realize that having more than two players in a game allows you to win much more but also leaves a lot of evidence behind. We are willing to be patient and take it a little at a time. Splitting up the money is no problem because we are not keeping any of the money we win. It is all being donated. Our goal is to win as much as possible in the long run so that we can eventually cheat the cheaters. We hate cheaters. We think of ourselves as being similar to narcotics agents that are forced to partake of drugs so that they can win the battle against drugs. Once we break up the existing teams we will be done with it.


Day one results...looking good. Up over $500 total. Our sincere apologies if you lost in a 1/2 game today. We will be spreading it around the different limits though so that we don't hit one population heavier than others.

"We have over 50 years of winning poker experience among us."


I guess this doesn't include the years you spent getting whipped on Paradise, huh?


"Day one results...looking good. Up over $500 total"


Do you guys want to join my league? You could be crowned the Paradise Poker League's Collusion Champs! It's designed especially for bad poker players who blame their losses on corrupt games and just can't stop playing!


"We hate cheaters, so we're gonna start cheating"


Yeah, that makes sense. You guys are a joke. Come find me on Paradise, I can't wait to see you in action.


PG

"We have observed them and feel that these are not exceptional players (with the exception of URMeowed who we feel is a very talented player)"


Thank you meow......I guess. Thanks for not watching when I play hands like a goober.


URMeowed


=^._.^=

You arent very sophistcated are you?


Why wouldn't you use "Firetalk" and a headset. then 2 or 3 or 4 of you oculd all talk at the same time over the same internet connection. Just tell you buddy what you have for cards. Why all the pre-occupation with cellphones' etc that cost money per minute...its just like imposing an additional rake on your actions.

**"Splitting up the money is no problem because we are not keeping any of the money we win. It is all being donated. Our goal is to win as much as possible in the long run so that we can eventually cheat the cheaters."**


But, didn't you say earlier that you will use the money you steal from your fellow players to move into the 20/40 games?


So, if you have to keep, say, $20,000 to fund this part of your psychopathic vendetta, won't this sum be far more than enough for you thieves to start quarrelling amongst yourselves and trying to steal from each other?


You should pick your chums better, Walter.


**"We hate cheaters."**


With you on that one.

My apologies to any "Walter Smitty" out there!!!

I always think cats play poker like goobers. As to the post at the start of this thread, I think it's troll bait. Cheats hide in the dark. As for the reasons they are losing, ring games are full of cheats and heads-up games have bullies in them. I think you are rationalizing your losing play. Stand up and smell the pavement. You are not the best poker player on PP, neither are your buddies.


Your choices are:


Find an easier game.

Improve your play.

Quit poker.

Prove to PP that players are cheating.

Cheat, but if your going to cheat, go ahead and cheat, but please don't post here because you make me sick.


Have a nice day.


MS Sunshine

Why not change the title of this thread to "Can't beat em...Cheat em. That makes more sence.

I received a reply from Paradise Support that they knew of the cheat's post before I had even written to them.


They do not allow me to repeat what they wrote back, in

this Public Forum, but I am sure they will not mind me saying that they suggest if anyone has specific concerns they should also write to Support for assistance or information.


I now have to assume they read all the posts here,(see what has happened to natedogg), so I am totally happy to concur with their instructions.


I think Paradise is a wonderful site and their Support Team is doing a marvellous job. They care very much for our welfare and if it wasn't for their huge expenses I am sure they would reduce their rake to an absolute minimum.


Don't forget to send the Team some very good presents at Christmas, for looking after us all so well.


Play well; play carefully.


Mike.