Stack size for push or fold

[DrGonzo]

When my stack size falls below 9xBB I go into "push or fold" mode. This is pretty standard, right?

My question is this: When I'm up against blinds that have significantly larger stacks than me, I sometimes like to push with larger stacks, 9-12xBB. I don't like making small raises here. There is a big chance that they will play back at me, since they can put me in a very tough spot where I risk getting busted while they don't.
Do you think it is correct to push with a 9-12xBB stack here or would you still make a smaller raise?

[raptor517]

the answer people never want to hear but that alawys seems to fit is it depends. it depends on who you're playing against, position, their stack size, etc. normally i push or fold around 8-9 BB. i feel that once im at that point, i can make it about 2.5 BB for a legit raise if i want some action, and it will get out the crap the same way 3.5 would do.

[DrGonzo]

Well, that WAS exactly the answer I wanted /images/graemlins/laugh.gif. That it depends.

My question was really how it changes when the stacks in the blinds are significantly bigger than yours and they know how to take advantage of that. In this situation, I would push with stacks that are larger than I would push with normally. I wonder if others would play the same in that situation.

[hurlyburly]

I think there is great merit to pushing with >10xBB when you aren't the bigstack. You can generally get some fold equity out of all but the loosest players.

Thanks to Daliman, I've been experimenting with this a lot lately. Following the general advice on here (but specifically Irieguy and Daliman), I've been laying off before level 4 which usually gets me to the bubble with a shortstack.

Whenever a 3xBB raise is over 40% of my stack, I start pushing with these hands when I can be first in the pot after lvl6 (limpers or raisers turn most of these hands into folds):
AA-66
AKs-A3s
AK-ATo
KQs-K9s
QJs, QTs, JTs

Once I'm in the money, I'll open it up a lot more (basically any 2 that add up to 20 in blackjack). The key is to be first in the pot.

There are still situations where the table is so tight we get to 300/600 with 5-6 players or more, and I'm starting to see that the first one to go maniac has a clear advantage (a steal there almost doubles you up and 1 free rotation is enough to see 3rd place).

It's a little awkward and embarrassing tossing in those tremendous overbets so often, but the turbos at stars have been crazy tight lately.

[smoore]

I push/fold at 10xBB, 11x if there's an ante. I give a lot more credit to the fold side if I'm not the opener. I'll push 12-13x EP sometimes if the've been folding on me quite often.

edit: I'm more likely to push 12-13x in LP than EP, BTW

[DrGonzo]

[ QUOTE ]

edit: I'm more likely to push 12-13x in LP than EP, BTW

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Thats interesting. Because the blinds are more likely to give you credit for a big hand when you are raising in EP and will not re-raise you if they don't have the goods? A normal 2.5-3xBB raise would be better in EP with a 12xBB stack then.
Sounds sensible to me. Thanks for the advice!

[pooh74]

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but the turbos at stars have been crazy tight lately.

[/ QUOTE ]

U think so?? Maybe its been the xmas spirit of giving or something but I made the money this weekend twice w/o playing a hand...I dont have the HH right now, but in one 25+2 at level 2 or 3 an 800 stack went all in...1 caller 2 callers (cold calling 800 at 30 blinds!!!) then a guy with 790 left called after the allin and 2 callers...on the flop the over stacks pushed the rest in...the fourth caller pf, u know what he had? KTs, lol......anyway, the AQo Ace spades flushed it to take down the mainpot...

Thats not tight...and this week this has been the rule not the exception...but you're right, lately the turbos have been water tight, often finding myself at 400 blinds with 5 ppl left...not my cup of tea man...theyre catching on...theyre everywhere!!!

pooh

[hurlyburly]

Ouch, sounds like I took the wrong weekend off! Guess everyone has been loosening up a little after seeing the number of 50 minute Turbos skyrocket.

[smoore]

[ QUOTE ]
Thats interesting. Because the blinds are more likely to give you credit for a big hand when you are raising in EP and will not re-raise you if they don't have the goods? A normal 2.5-3xBB raise would be better in EP with a 12xBB stack then.
Sounds sensible to me. Thanks for the advice!


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Nothing that complicated, just the fact that there's fewer people between me and the blinds.

[Irieguy]

It depends mostly on whether or not you are the shortest stack. Read Hurly's reply below for good advice on how to play as the shortest stack with more than 10BB.

When you are the shortest stack, over-pushing shows that you are ready to take your stand. You will have more folding equity under these circumstances with a big raise.

If somebody else is really short and you overpush, you lose a little folding equity against the bigger stacks if they can lose to you and still not be the short man. They also look at an overpush as more likely to be a steal than a "take a stand" hand, since they are also kind of hoping that the shortest stack will go away soon.

So, when I'm the shortest stack, I push with up to 13-15 BB with a wide range of hands. But otherwise, I would be very careful about pushing with more than 10BB against a big stack... you'll be surprised at how often they call.

Irieguy