JJ...this hand made me sick (whining post) [Archive]

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Harv72b

12-26-2004, 11:57 PM

Is there such a thing as a bad win? This has to be the most passive play of flopped trips/top kicker ever:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 5 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

I've given up on raising JJ out of the BB, at least against EP limpers. They're going to call a raise with their overcards anyway, so might as well wait for the flop to make a move.

Flop: (4 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, SB folds.

Turn: (3 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls.

River: (5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB
Main Pot: 7 BB, between UTG+2 and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (7 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero has Jc Js (full house, jacks full of tens).
UTG+2 has Ah Ts (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 7 BB. 

And yes, I would like some cheese with this. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

prox

12-27-2004, 12:55 AM

I think he was slowplaying but then the flush froze him up.

You gotta raise preflop though , it's too likely that you'll have an overpair and then you'd want those extra bets for sure.

The flop is pretty ugly, over card king .. I'd probably check and then check raise the flop hoping to represent some sort of slowplay with the tens. Also, try to get the flush draws to pay in case you do have the best hand. This would probably backfire though, since that AT guy would 3 bet me. Saved on the turn though.

gaming_mouse

12-27-2004, 01:05 AM

I've given up on raising JJ out of the BB, at least against EP limpers. They're going to call a raise with their overcards anyway, so might as well wait for the flop to make a move.

This is a TERRIBLE mistake. Your opponent is a 2:1 dog to MISS the flop. Push your equity edge.

gm

EDIT: The above is unclear. I mean he only HITS the flop 1 time in 3.

Luv2DriveTT

12-27-2004, 01:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I've given up on raising JJ out of the BB, at least against EP limpers. They're going to call a raise with their overcards anyway, so might as well wait for the flop to make a move

[/ QUOTE ]

BAD idea. People on party will raise A8o pre-flop from UTG. You are raising because pocket Jacks have a positive expected value. Read SSHE.. if you have read it, read it again. Raise, and re-raise with pocket Jacks from ALL positions on loose tables.

TT

Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)

12-27-2004, 01:14 AM

You shouldn't limp because they're going to call anyway. You should raise because you WANT them to call.

Harv72b

12-27-2004, 01:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a TERRIBLE mistake. Your opponent is a 2:1 dog to MISS the flop. Push your equity edge.

gm

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true in a HU situation, but against multiple early limpers, I've found that raising PF only serves to grow the pot enough for them to correctly call a flop bet with those same overcards. By checking through with 4 limpers (for example), they are then getting only 6:1 pot odds to call a flop bet on a rags board, vs. almost 8:1 odds of catching their 6-outer. If I raise & everyone calls, their pot odds jump to 11:1 on that flop bet. I'd rather use that same SB to represent top pair on the flop (especially if it comes out Hi low low) than throw it in preflop.

Maybe I'm just playing scared, but when I raise with JJ I'm doing it to protect my hand more than to push a positive equity edge. And I'm just not going to protect it by raising after everyone else has already called one bet.

gaming_mouse

12-27-2004, 01:43 AM

Harv,

This is not really a point for debate. It is incorrect not to raise. One major flaw with your reasoning is that you don't consider the rare (but important) times when you flop a set. Ed has a good article in the forum magazine this month on the importance of long shot events with big payoffs.

gm

JEM7VSBL

12-27-2004, 01:54 AM

i'm with everyone else here, you have to raise preflop.

WiredPair

12-27-2004, 09:59 AM

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe I'm just playing scared, but when I raise with JJ I'm doing it to protect my hand more than to push a positive equity edge. And I'm just not going to protect it by raising after everyone else has already called one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with gm. I think your logic above is flawed. You should be raising with JJ pre-flop to push a positive equity edge. You almost certainly are ahead pre-flop, especially given that no one has raised and you are in the BB. If they all do call, which is what you are afraid of, they are most likely making a mistake.

As to your concern about pushing the pot odds to 11:1 on the flop, you are assuming that someone will flop a gutshot. If they flop a flush draw or open-ended straight draw, you aren't going to get them out anyway. If the flop comes with an overcard, you can always check, especially if you have some aggressive players to act after you, and go for a check-raise to cut the odds.

DMBFan23

12-27-2004, 10:44 AM

The old school "raising JJ out of the small blind" thread with input from Ed, Clarkmeister, Dynasty (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=&Number=301785&page=&view= &sb=5&o=&fpart=all)

Mike

12-27-2004, 12:57 PM

I am jumping in pretty late, but you want to get the most $$ out of your JJ. You do that by getting the money in preflop when the table is most likely to play with you. Then when you flop a hand they are more likely to stay with you because the pot is big. Driving people out is wrong thinking. You can't and rarely want to protect your hand in most cases at limit.

JJ will only drag a pot a few percentage points over break even so if you slow play JJ you may as well throw it away preflop. You need to raise to get the most value out of JJ when you do drag a pot with JJ...such as this hand.