20/40

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I think the hallmark of a great player is when they can push a player off a nice pot with nothing. Thats the player I want to be. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Anyways this 20/40 hand came up and I tried to be a hero.

MP - a TAG who is capable of folding in questionable situations and has no read on me.
LP - a tricky decent TAG that seems to simply cold-call a bit too much.

folded to MP who raises, LP cold calls, I look down at K9o in the SB and hadn't played a hand in an hour. I decide to maintain my sanity and not become too much of an apparent tightly whitey I'd call, BB folds.

3 to the flop (7 SB): J-8-8 rainbow

I check, MP bets, LP folds, I call (with the intention of check-raising any card under a Q on the turn.)

2 to the turn (5.5 BB): 8

Well that in my mind was the worst card under a Queen I could ask for. I check, MP bets, I raise...how's it look so far?

I had my reasons for calling preflop..I'm more interested post-flop.

[Clarkmeister]

" had my reasons for calling preflop.."

...and they were all bad. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

No real advice on the hand other than to fold preflop. It's good that you at least are attempting lines like this, but in the end you'll realize that there's just not a lot to gain from it. One of those things you need to learn on your own though.

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[ QUOTE ]
" had my reasons for calling preflop.."

...and they were all bad. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

No real advice on the hand other than to fold preflop. It's good that you at least are attempting lines like this, but in the end you'll realize that there's just not a lot to gain from it. One of those things you need to learn on your own though.

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Clark are you saying this is close to the right situation to try a maneuver like this (if I'm confident in my read), or are you saying even trying these types of moves are pretty much even EV in the long-run?

Thanks.

P.S. - Not even the bored reason is good enough to call preflop?! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Nightwish]

If you're hell bent on playing this K9o from the worst possible position, why not at least 3-bet preflop? It's still grossly -EV, but it's not as bad as cold calling and makes it a little easier to move others off hands later.

Incidentally, I think trying to move TAGs off better hands is a -EV proposition. Have some patience and wait for a better opportunity.

In this particular situation, if he has an A or any pair, he's not folding.

[AAeyes]

FWIW I think your take on 'the hallmark of a great player' is off base. Certainly, recognizing when you have a strong chance of knocking a player off a big pot with a bluff is a great skill to have, but how often does that specific set of circumstances come up? You have nothing, the other player has you beat, the pot is large, and this may be one of those players you can knock off a hand. I don't think it comes up often enough that you should set that as your watermark for greatness.

That being said, that is the kind of flop I think bluffing has the most merit on... well I would have prefered the pair on board be lower, but still. I just think I would have to be confident that I could knock the other player off a hand as strong as maybe top pair/marginal kicker to make the call before the flop. Just my opinion.

Best Wishes

AAeyes

[lil feller]

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FWIW I think your take on 'the hallmark of a great player' is off base. Certainly, recognizing when you have a strong chance of knocking a player off a big pot with a bluff is a great skill to have, but how often does that specific set of circumstances come up

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In my limited experience, in limit poker, these circumstances almost never come up. It is difficult to find somebody who is meets all the requirements to make this work. The one big bet has to matter to them financially, they must be proud enough to make a "tough" laydown, and they must be dumb enough to ignore the size of the pot...tough to find in limit poker...

lf

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[ QUOTE ]
FWIW I think your take on 'the hallmark of a great player' is off base. Certainly, recognizing when you have a strong chance of knocking a player off a big pot with a bluff is a great skill to have, but how often does that specific set of circumstances come up

[/ QUOTE ]

In my limited experience, in limit poker, these circumstances almost never come up. It is difficult to find somebody who is meets all the requirements to make this work. The one big bet has to matter to them financially, they must be proud enough to make a "tough" laydown, and they must be dumb enough to ignore the size of the pot...tough to find in limit poker...

lf

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But are you agreeing the circumstances were met in this hand? I'm not too concerned with how often I'll see it.

A good thinking player, who has me read as good TAG, or lacking in any read at all must fold AK, AQ, KQ here and some will go as far as folding TT, 99.

[hockey1]

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A good thinking player, who has me read as good TAG, or lacking in any read at all must fold AK, AQ, KQ here and some will go as far as folding TT, 99.

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What thinking player will believe that a TAG player calls a raise from the SB with an 8 in his hand? You need either to be more aware of your image or more aware of what impact your image has on other players to attempt this move. If anything, thinking player is more likely to lay down his hand if he read you as LAGgy.

[TStoneMBD]

in an effort to avoid being a tighty whitey, you became the loosey goosey.

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in an effort to avoid being a tighty whitey, you became the loosey goosey.

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Is that so bad in certain circumstances?

In fact, if this hand didn't work out, I was still going to resort in using it as an image tactic.

[Doubling12]

"I think the hallmark of a great player is when they can push a player off a nice pot with nothing. Thats the player I want to be."

"if this hand didn't work out, I was still going to resort in using it as an image tactic"

You have to make up your mind...these are incongruent statements.

[Avatar]

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"I think the hallmark of a great player is when they can push a player off a nice pot with nothing. Thats the player I want to be."

"if this hand didn't work out, I was still going to resort in using it as an image tactic"

You have to make up your mind...these are incongruent statements.

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No they aren't. Read it again.

[Doubling12]

Hi - I read everything again, and I still don't understand. It is very true that a solid player earns himself the right to pick up a pot every now and then. But cold calling a raise with a bad hand out of position is the wrong way to cash in on your image. If you fold for another hour, your future bluffs will have that much greater chance for success.

Also, when you call the flop with the intention of bluff-raising the turn, you need a *lot* of things going your way in limit poker. That move is better suited to deep-stack NL. When you raise the turn, what hand are you representing? An 8? So MP is to believe that a very tight player coldcalled a raise out of position with a single 8? I would guess that 95% of opponents holding a Jack will call you down, and/or a pocket pair in that vicinity. He could have AA/KK, as he has bet or raised at every opportunity. Even if your play worked (and since you posted it, perhaps it did), you have used up some of your hard-earned bluff potential.

[Rushmore]

Not to answer for Clark, but there's no good reason on earth to call preflop. Period.

As for the turn check-raise, this has to be in your arsenal, obviously, but this doesn't look like an ideal moment.

Perhaps "any card under queen which does not match anything on the board" might have been a little better?

Hope it worked out anyway.

Note: Edited for grammar and spiritual reconfiguration. Ok, grammar.