20/40 - Huge laydown with a flopped flush. Foolish?

[Avatar]

20/40 game. A bit loose. A bit passive.
I have a fairly TAG image on the table at this point in time (it's always changing).

5 limpers to me in the SB. I look down at K /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif. I raise. BB calls, as does all the limpers.

As the dealer is flopping, I say aloud.."aces never hold up in these pots".

7 to the flop (14 SB) of:
9 /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif.
CHA-CHING!

I check, and it gets checked around to the slightly tight, very passive button who bets. I call, as do two others.

4 to the turn (9 BB): J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I decide to bet for obvious reasons. Slightly tight/slightly aggressive MP calls, tight/passive button now raises. I think for 30 seconds, play with my chips some, and re-raise. MP folds, button hesitates for 10 seconds and 4 bets me..
I think a bit..twiddle my thumbs..check which way the wind is blowing..and fold.

Good laydown or did I have too much wine today?

[STLantny]

Im not sure why you laid it down, care to explain? Otherwise, lay off the vino.

[winky51]

Huh comes to mind as only 1 hand beats you.

[Diplomat]

Is this a troll?

-Diplomat

[Avatar]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a troll?

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

Not positive on the meaning of troll but let me add..the hand happened at Brantford Casino. I'm sure you play there.

Anyways..to make more clear.. button was a recreational player who was very very passive.

Change anything?

[andyfox]

Two hands.

[STLantny]

10:1 that we will soon learn the villian in the hand had a straight flush, or AT of clubs. Well, let me be the first to congratulate you on the super laydown.

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways..to make more clear.. button was a recreational player who was very very passive.

Change anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

now, please understand that I've certainly been guilty of things like this in the past, so this isn't just throwing stones, but...

if the above paragraph means "he'll only raise with hands that beat me", then why post the hand? To get a "good job, nice laydown" ego-stroke? If he'll raise with any flush, thinking that there is no way you have a flush, then you need to call.

You are the only person that knows your opponent. If you made a good read, you knew it at the time, and no amount of critique on this forum should matter.

So, again, why did you post it?

Josh

[Avatar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyways..to make more clear.. button was a recreational player who was very very passive.

Change anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

now, please understand that I've certainly been guilty of things like this in the past, so this isn't just throwing stones, but...

if the above paragraph means "he'll only raise with hands that beat me", then why post the hand? To get a "good job, nice laydown" ego-stroke? If he'll raise with any flush, thinking that there is no way you have a flush, then you need to call.

You are the only person that knows your opponent. If you made a good read, you knew it at the time, and no amount of critique on this forum should matter.

So, again, why did you post it?

Josh

[/ QUOTE ]

If we all followed your words of wisdom we wouldn't need this forum. Everyone's reads would be inarguable. My read on this guy was he was very very passive. In other words..haven't seen him bluff without the nuts.

I never said I played this hand right. I thought it was a very debatable hand. That's why I posted it. Is that good enough for you officer?

[Josh W]

see, we use this forum for (lots of reasons). however, when you make a play based ENTIRELY on a read, the only people who can comment are people who had the same read as you.

a 'read' does not depend on stragety. a 'read' does not depend on math (except when you have drawing outs, like if you had K6s in this situation, and may have odds to draw to a straightflush).

What does 'very very passive' mean? does it mean he'll only raise with a hand that beats yours (hence you are drawing dead)? Will he raise with any flush? seriously...these are my questions...my question isn't (forgive my previous response) "why did you post the hand".

what hands will he reraise you with here? what does 'very very passive' mean to you? are you ahead at least 1 in 8 times? if so, call down. if not, fold.

or, don't answer the questions, and realize that your post is impossible to respond to intelligently.

josh

[phifediggy]

i would call and then check-call the river if i feared the ace high flush. he might have a set for all you know.

[Avatar]

[ QUOTE ]
see, we use this forum for (lots of reasons). however, when you make a play based ENTIRELY on a read, the only people who can comment are people who had the same read as you.

a 'read' does not depend on stragety. a 'read' does not depend on math (except when you have drawing outs, like if you had K6s in this situation, and may have odds to draw to a straightflush).

What does 'very very passive' mean? does it mean he'll only raise with a hand that beats yours (hence you are drawing dead)? Will he raise with any flush? seriously...these are my questions...my question isn't (forgive my previous response) "why did you post the hand".

what hands will he reraise you with here? what does 'very very passive' mean to you? are you ahead at least 1 in 8 times? if so, call down. if not, fold.

or, don't answer the questions, and realize that your post is impossible to respond to intelligently.

josh

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the longer explanation Josh. I understand what you mean now. Didn't quite before.

[billuhbong]

i think thats absolutely absurd to fold, at least check and call it down, good god man, WUT DO U THINK He flopped the nut flush and u flopped the secondary nut, at most he hit a set...

jeez blgdvDvxcvxcvh how could u FOLD!!

[Avatar]

[ QUOTE ]
i think thats absolutely absurd to fold, at least check and call it down, good god man, WUT DO U THINK He flopped the nut flush and u flopped the secondary nut, at most he hit a set...

jeez blgdvDvxcvxcvh how could u FOLD!!

[/ QUOTE ]

umm...is reading too many tommy angelo posts a viable excuse? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[EliteNinja]

Maybe he was bluff-reraising?

[amulet]

why not call it down? the pot is large, so call it down? to fold in a pot this big can not be correct?

i also think the preflop raise is incorrect. you make a flush by the river less then 6% of the time, that many people IF you flop top pair there are hands that beat you. KTs is playable in that position, but not a premium hand.

[Avatar]

[ QUOTE ]
why not call it down? the pot is large, so call it down? to fold in a pot this big can not be correct?

i also think the preflop raise is incorrect. you make a flush by the river less then 6% of the time, that many people IF you flop top pair there are hands that beat you. KTs is playable in that position, but not a premium hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the pre-flop raise is easily correct... I want people correctly chasing me down when I hit my straight or flush. This table is loose..I'm pushing my edge, and I am not playing for 1 pair value here. If I do get out kicked on a lone king..all the power to the villain..

[billuhbong]

avatar i think its agreed upon the community... u made the wrong choice in folding, sorry /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Clarkmeister]

"i also think the preflop raise is incorrect"

I now officially wonder if you even play poker. Are you perhaps related to Turning Stone Pro?

[creedofhubris]

I don't think I understand. Do you consider it a standard/strong move to raise with KTs from the small blind?

(I'm just a lurker here, mostly I hang out on NL. FWIW, to answer the original post, I would never lay this down in a LIMIT game in that situation, but I would check/call a rock.)

[lil feller]

This situation, like so many others, boils down to two things.

1. How sure are you that your opponent has a hand that beats you (and if you're beat, obviously you have no draw)

2. How big is the pot?

It is extremely difficult to quantify #1, especially in front of a computer, and nobody on this forum that wasn't in your game can possibily understand how you arrived at your value for #1. I've made folds like this before, but I have been 100% sure that the villian had Axs or the straight flush (67 if IIRC). I've folded KK pre-flop in no limit also, but was 100% sure the other guy had AA. In my usual B&M game there are maybe 2 or 3 people I fold this hand to, maybe this is guy is one such guy for you. The point here is that we can't possibily assess this kind of sitaution for you, all you can do is evaulate odds you have the best hand to odds you're getting from the pot, and make a decision.

My gut tells me it was the right play, no player like you described 4 bets with a set here, he might have a smaller flush, but putting him on anything less than a flopped flush after the 4 bet is just wishful thinking, the only question that remains is how big...

lf

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
i also think the preflop raise is incorrect. you make a flush by the river less then 6% of the time, that many people IF you flop top pair there are hands that beat you. KTs is playable in that position, but not a premium hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've had some disagreements on AKo and AQo, but big suited aces and kings are excellent value raises in the blinds against limpers. Even a weak Vegas player like me would raise here.

[pokerOpus]

folding this is insane.

[afish]

I would have bet the flop and tried to get more action.

On the turn, your fold is insane. It is unlikely to get reraised behind you. You are getting 7:1 on your money if you call the turn and the river. Your hand will be good more than one out of eight times. Even if you lose 80% of the time, calling this hand down is correct.

[Clarkmeister]

And one day grasshopper, you will reach true enlightenment when you realize that even in a family pot, AKo is superior to KTs. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think thats absolutely absurd to fold, at least check and call it down, good god man, WUT DO U THINK He flopped the nut flush and u flopped the secondary nut, at most he hit a set...

jeez blgdvDvxcvxcvh how could u FOLD!!

[/ QUOTE ]

umm...is reading too many tommy angelo posts a viable excuse? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy would have check-folded the flop.

[SoBeDude]

After your "speech" about Aces not holding up in these pots, your opponent can put you on a lot of hands that are NOT a flush, so he'll think raising you is correct with many non-flush or smaller flush hands.

We've all seen people 3bet with Aces when its obvious to everyone else at the table that the overpair is no good. Also you bet out on the turn, and the turn card makes a straight possible.
Wouldn't someone with QT holding the Q /images/graemlins/club.gif maybe 3bet the turn? And if someone has a smaller made flush, they should punish anyone holding a lone big club.

I think there are enough possibilities here that you need to call down.

-Scott

[Avatar]

[ QUOTE ]
After your "speech" about Aces not holding up in these pots, your opponent can put you on a lot of hands that are NOT a flush, so he'll think raising you is correct with many non-flush or smaller flush hands.

We've all seen people 3bet with Aces when its obvious to everyone else at the table that the overpair is no good. Also you bet out on the turn, and the turn card makes a straight possible.
Wouldn't someone with QT holding the Q /images/graemlins/club.gif maybe 3bet the turn? And if someone has a smaller made flush, they should punish anyone holding a lone big club.

I think there are enough possibilities here that you need to call down.

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

I was waiting for someone to mention that. Due to that remark I made I did decide to call the 4-bet. And check/call the river.

I tapped the table and said you win and he flips over A /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. If the pot wasn't quite as big I think I could safely fold to the turn 4-bet based on my read on this player.

I changed the original post a bit to make it more debatable.

[bobbyi]

I'm suprised more people haven't questioned the flop play. Bet this! With this many people in and this much money in the pot, you'll get action. Your bet looks like a follow-through on your preflop raise, so you aren't giving away the strength of your hand. Your hand is strong enough to slowplay, but that doesn't mean that you'll make the most money that way. In the games I play, I often get plenty of action from the bare A /images/graemlins/club.gif here. He may cap it with me, trapping lots of people in between who are drawing dead. Or someone puts me on the bare A /images/graemlins/club.gif (probably on AKo) and decides his hand is good. Or no one has much, but people will call for one bet because of the pot size and otherwise it would have checked around (as it almost did here). There are lots of possibilities here, but in general I think you're leaving money on the table by checking.

[ggbman]

I really think you have to call this down. You don't think there's any chance he flopped a smaller flush or a set and thought he was slowplaying? I think with the money in there already, you have to grit you teeth and call it down, there's only one thing that beats you.

[DanS]

[ QUOTE ]
"i also think the preflop raise is incorrect"

I now officially wonder if you even play poker. Are you perhaps related to Turning Stone Pro?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOOOOOL. But remember, TSP is a self-anointed "shorthanded expert," ass whippings from Jay aside.

Dan

[Alexthegreat]

No one is going to tell you to fold the second nut flush in a limit game.....You must have known this....You played the hand just fine, and there is really nothing we can help you with......

This hand is going to happen and there is nothing you can do about it. You are going to flop the second nuts and be beaten by a tight player who flopped the nuts.....You are going to call it down almost every time. If you ever DO lay a hand like this down, it will be because you are 100% sure that you are beaten, and you will never ask anyone for advice on how you played it, because you will know, just like you know your own name, that you made the correct laydown.....


Please don't change hands to make it more interesting/debatable/controversial for us.....The advice you'll get won't help your game, and it is a waste of time for us....

[Avatar]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand is going to happen and there is nothing you can do about it. You are going to flop the second nuts and be beaten by a tight player who flopped the nuts.....You are going to call it down almost every time. If you ever DO lay a hand like this down, it will be because you are 100% sure that you are beaten, and you will never ask anyone for advice on how you played it, because you will know, just like you know your own name, that you made the correct laydown.....


[/ QUOTE ]

I like your analogy here and I do agree.

[ QUOTE ]
Please don't change hands to make it more interesting/debatable/controversial for us.....The advice you'll get won't help your game, and it is a waste of time for us....

[/ QUOTE ]

There is nothing wrong with changing a hand a bit *if* I could have played that hand in that fashion.

And please stay away from name calling. It shows very little class. Ego's always seem inflated on an internet forum. Debate, disagree, agree, but don't insult please.

Thank you.

[Alexthegreat]

I guess we don't agree on the changing the hands....I think that all of us *could* have played many hands a little differently, but we don't....that's what makes poker poker....in the heat of battle we make our choices and while we can look back and say "yeah, I could have" we didn't, so I don't think it's correct to say that you are fully capable of playing the hand differently...

As to the title of my post, I was 100% kidding around.....Just wanted to grab your attention /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[Avatar]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess we don't agree on the changing the hands....I think that all of us *could* have played many hands a little differently, but we don't....that's what makes poker poker....in the heat of battle we make our choices and while we can look back and say "yeah, I could have" we didn't, so I don't think it's correct to say that you are fully capable of playing the hand differently...

As to the title of my post, I was 100% kidding around.....Just wanted to grab your attention /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok Alex, I understand what you are saying.

And you are a bigger dork. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[siriusradio]

horrible laydown.. I can't believe you think it's alright to laydown that hand with that pot. How do you know this isn't the hand that that "very passive" is gonna step it up and try and bluff you out of a pot. Or bet his small flush or two pair or trips for value against your AA he thinks you have. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I layed that hand down.