TT says - Lets GAMBLE with LAG on the flop [Archive]

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Luv2DriveTT

12-26-2004, 11:10 PM

This is some rather unconventional play by me.
I'm trying to push small edges more and more, especially when I am playing against a known maniac or LAG. The Party tables have been extra juicy today, I guess its the holidays.

SB - VPIP of 60%, 40 hands, PFR of 15%
UTG+1 - VPIP of 82%, 60 or so hands, PFR of 20% (I'm NOT kidding!). AF of 2.3

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Button folds, SB calls, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, SB calls.

SB will bet out on anything with overcards, so I raise to cut the pot odds in 1/2 for the remaining players who will all try to draw out on this hand with a gutshot to the 4. Villain 3-bets (he always trys to push people off of hands) and I say what the hell.... I have top pair on a coordinated board with an outside non-nut flush draw. I have two choices, fold (the safe choice) or Lets gamble - CAPAROO! (dumb.. but I did it anyway)

Turn: (11.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, MP2 folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

OK.... I know my flop play was wild, but this is where it starts to get interesting.

A) I can bet out representing the straight, and now I have the top side of my runner-runner in place for what is most likely a clean 9 outs.

B) I can check-call to see the river. Villian will ALWAYS bet the turn if I check.

How do you like my line?

River: (15.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls.

mmmmmmm.... donuts!
Final Pot: 23.50 BB

Ok.. tell me I'm a LAG. I normally don't deserve it, today I do.
TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

Harv72b

12-26-2004, 11:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 - VPIP of 82%, 60 or so hands, PFR of 20% (I'm NOT kidding!). AF of 2.3

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I've played against this person before. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
River: (15.50 BB) J (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls

[/ QUOTE ]

No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition! Or the backdoor flush from someone who capped the flop. Brilliant!

I hope UTG+1 showed AA. I truly do.

Luv2DriveTT

12-27-2004, 12:41 AM

I'm not looking for a pat on the back (but thanks anyway), I want turn feedback. I think this hand is far from brilliant, it just got interesting on the turn.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

Harv72b

12-27-2004, 01:02 AM

Okay, seriously...given that you obviously felt that UTG+1 would bet/raise with absolutely nothing, I like the line that you took with this hand, including the flop cap & the turn bet. I wouldn't recommend doing that often, but again, based on your specific reads, I think it's a good play here.

On the turn specifically, UTG+1 has made it painfully obvious thus far that he's not giving up his hand, so if you check, you know he'll bet it, and you know you'll call it with the number of outs you have. Therefore, betting can accomplish one of two things:
1) UTG+1 calls, not costing you any more bets to see the river than if you'd check/called, but giving you a better idea of his hand, or...
2) UTG+1 raises, effectively forcing out everyone else.

Either way, since you're committed to staying in this hand, the bet makes a ton of sense. Given the fact that UTG+1 raised you, that has to mean either an overpair (not very likely with his PFR numbers), a set (fairly likely), or a made straight (equally likely). I'm basing that on the fact that, although UTG+1 has extremely high VP$IP & PFR numbers, the overall AF isn't that high. Anyway, that raise tends to make me think that UTG+1 is serious, and that you can fold to a river bet unimproved (so again, you spend the same amount of bets by bet/calling the turn as you would check/calling the turn & river, assuming you'd have called a river bet without hitting your draw).

The third diamond likely bailed you out on two counts, first of all vaulting you ahead of UTG+1 (the only likely scenario I can think of where you lose is if UTG+1 had A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, which would obviously raise every street). Assuming you did win, it also allows you to show the table just how whacked out your play on this entire hand was, gaining you a lot more action than you'd normally see from the decent players.

So what I'm saying is, given your reads & your intent in this hand, I do think you played it perfectly. In hindsight it looks like you were behind right up until the river, but hey...luck doesn't always go to the other guy.

Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)

12-27-2004, 01:20 AM

This flop is perfect for your hand. Against these two crazies, I like the flop raise, but I would just try to get to showdown cheaply when UTG 3-bets. Call the flop 3-bet, call the turn, raise/cap the river.

DrPublo

12-27-2004, 04:04 AM

MMmmmmmmm.....donuts.

Seriously TT, good playing with you the other night. I know you didnt feel like you were playing your A game but it looked good to me.

And as soon as I get a pic of that goofy red visor I'll post it as my avatar.

Take it easy.

The Doc

Luv2DriveTT

12-27-2004, 09:16 AM

If I knew that the Villain was holding 46 for the 7 high straight, I would have check-called the turn. But the 7 looked like a possible double belly buster for one of my opponents, and I felt I needed to represent the made hand imediatly by betting out. Also I just capped the flop play... checking the turn at this point is weak tight (but possibly smart anyway since I am out of position). I could have feigned a idot player attempting to check-raise the turn, but if they were at all observant I think they would have known I was smarter than that by now.

Amazing, my take on the Villan was right. He had a gutshot on the flop but 3-bet against me and called my cap. Boy did I get lucky on the river... He is now on my buddy list for life!

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

Luv2DriveTT

12-27-2004, 09:20 AM

Dude... you are such a fool. I had a blast, I was laughing non stop! Too bad by 10PM I started getting tired, and my post-flop game faltered. Thats what happens when you get no sleep the night before.... at least I was up 11BB at the end of it all (I was up 37BB at one point), it could have been worse. Check the thread in B&M... its trip report time!

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

Munga30

12-27-2004, 10:50 AM

It sounds like you should check the turn and see what happens. You pretty much know the bet is coming from your left and you may be able to "trap" the remaining players for a bet each. This is much better than putting in two big bets with heads-up action.

I'm all for pushing edges against such aggressive players, but the best way to push that edge is to let them hang themselves. That way you don't put in a lot of money with the worst of it when they do have a hand. He could have hit this flop any number of ways -- overpair, set, straight, or two pair. I know he'll have lots of other hands and play them the same way, but you aren't even that robust against his trash. Call the flop three bet and see what develops. Those 10 times a diamond shows, you are in the best possible position.

Luv2DriveTT

12-27-2004, 11:36 AM

Good point Munga, I needed your sanity to bring me back down to relaity here. Flop insanity aside, I think I should have checked - called the turn. There are still players remaining, I cannot know what they will do... and it might be more profitable if they come along for the ride rather than fold to my turn raise (even though the pot was big enough for many of them to call with as little as 4 outs, bad small stakes players don't know this, they just get scared off by aggression on the turn).

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif