A perfect example

I have two questions below:


Game $3/$6 Hold'em - 2001/09/24 (CST)

Table "Aruba" (real money) -- Seat 5 is the button

Seat 1: player 1 ($166 in chips)

Seat 2: player 2 ($154 in chips)

Seat 5: player 3 ($118 in chips)

Seat 6: player 4 ($192 in chips)

Seat 7: natedogg ($81 in chips)

player 4 : Post Small Blind ($1)

natedogg: Post Big Blind ($3)

Dealing...

Dealt to natedogg [ 5c ]

Dealt to natedogg [ Ah ]

player 1 : Call ($3)

player 2 : Fold

player 3: Fold

player 4 : Call ($2)

natedogg: Check

*** FLOP *** : [ Qd As 8h ]

player 4 : Check

natedogg: Bet ($3)

player 1 : Call ($3)

player 4 : Fold

*** TURN *** : [ Qd As 8h ] [ 2h ]

natedogg: Check

player 1 : Bet ($6)

natedogg: Raise ($12)

player 1 : Call ($6)

*** RIVER *** : [ Qd As 8h 2h ] [ 8d ]

natedogg: Check

player 1 : Bet ($6)

natedogg: Call ($6)

*** SUMMARY ***

Pot: $49 | Rake: $2

Board: [ Qd As 8h 2h 8d ]

player 1 bet $24, collected $49, net +$25 (showed hand) [ Jh 8s ] (three of a kind, eights)

player 2 didn't bet (folded)

player 3 didn't bet (folded)

player 4 lost $3 (folded)

natedogg lost $24 [ 5c Ah ] (two pair, aces and eights)


1. Is my call on the river a big leak?


2. Did my opponent make any mistakes?


At one time, I would have thought those were smart-ass questions, but I'm starting to doubt everything I know about limit holdem, so believe me, these are serious questions.


natedogg

This situation; flop I check raise...then it makes him hard to peel another card on the turn when you bet out at him. Perhaps your way of playing wins more in the long run, with a higher variance. I'm not sure. I just find that CRing the flop and betting out the turn is the way here. I'm not a fan of making strong CR moves on the turn when I don't improve.


I think your call on the river is a must, seeing as you are splitting with any decent ace, and his play here typifies a passive faggy player with a haggard ace.


Miles...So What?

How can you seriously discuss strategy if you're unsure the game is honest?

The place where I see a possible mistake is on the turn, by both players. I would almost never try for the check-raise on the turn as you are weak, and doing so opens you up to being three-bet by a better hand, or causing a worse hand to fold. The problem with check raising is that you are now laying him a bigger pot to draw at. He is getting 6:1 implied odds on a draw (as opposed to 3:1) and he has a pair which might be good. In this particular circumstance you forced the worse hand to put in two big bets, but what's going to happen on average? The better hands are surely going to call, and the worse hands are going to check it through far too often to make this play worthwhile.


You are out of position, and you need to keep up the pressure. If I were offered a free card on the turn with bottom pair on the flop, I would usually let it check through hoping to induce a bluff on the river.


Other than the turn, both players played it exactly as I would have played the hand. Of course, these are just my own personal opinions.


- Andrew

nate,


I won't go into much detail on whether a bet or CR on the turn

would have been better, but you played fine. Your opponent played

very poorly and got lucky.


Mark

You both played this hand poorly!!! In any case you are in trouble from the beginning and your opponent just got lucky. Why would he stay in with his hand. How had you played previously to give him the idea that you would bet and even check raise without a strong hand. After he bet the flop you have to assume he has something and your hand is not strong enough to continue much less go for a check raise. You received 4 warnings. 1)he bet the flop. 2)he bet the turn after you checked. 3)he called your check raise on the turn. 4)he bet the river after you checked (unafraid of another check raise). You are holding cards that must hit the flop a lot harder to show any profit. Just think of all the cards your opponent could have that would leave you drawing dead. You have every few outs and are going after a small pot. No profit here....fold.....next hand.

nt

nt

IMO, check-raising the turn here is a huge mistake. After betting the flop and now having the hand heads up you MUST bet the turn. You really cant expect him to bet the turn when you check to him (unless he has consistently done this in the past, not sure as we have no background). But giving a free card to a gutshot or whatever he could have here could be a big mistake. Granted the guy was obviously an idiot and he probably wouldn't fold anyway if he is playing that trash and calling the flop to begin with, but its still an error to check the turn.


Just my 2 cents.


-ActionBob

Wow. I was very surprised that everyone zeroed in on my checkraise on the turn as a mistake. It didn't really occur to me.


The way I looked at it, I successfully got my opponent to put in two bets on the turn in a small heads up pot with only five outs. It's very hard for me to understand how this could be a mistake on my part. A quick EV calc in my head returns something like +$10 immediate EV, not factoring in the current pot size, which was small anyway.


When he called my bet on the flop, I was fairly sure he had a small piece of it but not much. I was also fairly sure he would bet the turn if I checked. I had this read because of how we both had been playing. Let's assume I had an accurate read. Also, he had no reason to believe I had anything other than a real hand, because I had not been playing very fast. So I figured my checkraise was perfect. If he folds, fine. If he calls, I still win in the long run. The slight chance that he limped in with a hand that would hit that flop harder than I did was worth the risk. Am I just crazy?


Obviously, I was 100% correct about his hand and how he would play it, but I didn't think for a minute it would be a mistake to trap him for two bets with only five outs. I'm still not sure what to make of these responses. I would love to see what Angelina would say.


I also figured I was inducing a bluff on the river and protecting against a free-roll bluff from a weak ace by checking and calling.


natedogg


PS: When I titled this post "A perfect example" I was talking about a perfect example of a hand where I would have normally believed I played well and my opponent made mistakes, but that I was now no longer sure because of things people are telling me.

I'm with you Nate. You were ahead. WAY ahead. If you can get your lone opponent to put two big bets in on the turn with only 5 outs to beat you, I can't see how this could possibly be a mistake. The only problem I can find with the check/raise on the turn is the obvious possibility of giving a free card, but that didn't happen.


PG

"You received 4 warnings. 1)he bet the flop. 2)he bet the turn after you checked. 3)he called your check raise on the turn."


I don't understand this at all. Warnings? Nate was ahead. His opponent had 5 outs to beat him. What is he supposed to be afraid of.


PG

As Miles Davis posted, I checkraise the flop with a hand like that 90% of the time. I also checkraise the flop with flush draws, decent second pair and on occasion, if my opponent is the right sort, with a hand as weak as a gutshot and one overcard. I believe this makes my play difficult to read and the main advantage of this line of play is that if they play back at me at any stage during the hand I can fold with a clear conscience. Normally they either call me down and then muck, or fold the turn. On the hand you posted he would possibly have folded the turn which is reasonably EV-neutral. If he had bet out at me on the river I would have called. If he had checked I would have bet and then folded to the checkraise.


Chris

sorry...I did miss read on my first go. He called your flop bet.

What came first the chicken or the egg. You made the first mistake by trying to run over your opponent with this peice of cheese. Don't let anyone tell you different. You have one pair with a lousy kicker. Period end of story. When your hand didn't get help on the turn you needed to check and fold. YES YOU WERE AHEAD THE WHOLE WAY UP TO THE RIVER.....so what, you were NOT ahead when it counts. To often we see this kind of play where you have Ace little and an opponent has Ace smaller.....what hits the river? You got it!!! The opponent hits his kicker and you are dead meat in a hand you should have checked and folded. Again I say...bad cards out of position, small pot....next hand.

His opponent had 5 outs. That sounds like way ahead to me. Who cares that he had A-rag? What if he had AK? Is it still a check/fold hand?


PG

IF....IF.....IF he had AK he would have played the hand correctly!!! HE DIDN'T. You are correct that his opponent only had 5 outs. Hind sight is always 20/20. Ace rag is not a hand worth raising in this situation. Last time...bad kicker, bad position, small pot. Clearly a neg EV. Check and fold.

I have played 2 games 8-16 and higher ever day on paradise for over a year and have no problems other than the swings up and down .I say you cant make money with A 5 in the bb by hitting your A on the flop you have to know you are out kicked to often to make money in the long run and play it accordingly.The 8 in the river is a good card for you to check and call or maybe bet on the river in the long run because you have AA and 88s with Q kicker,much better than your 5 kicker.You cant be putting players on dumb hands on the turn and then putting a ton of money in and expecting to win in the long run (check raising the turn),in most cases I would check call the turn and the river all because of your poor kicker and expect to lose.Any play should be made early in the hand in most cases either bet right out on the flop or check raise the flop and then bet into the guy on the turn and expect to lose money more often than not if called because of your poor kicker.I often then call the turn and river to stop people from buffing me out.But in the end you cant expect to make money in the long run with A 5 in the big blind by hitting your ace.

I'm talking about a 10 handed tight higher limit game where the players (good or bad) often come in limping in with AA or AK, short handed your A5 would hold up more and can be played faster.Your going to get killed with A5 when players see you putting in a lot of bets with junk in a tight 10 handed game, you will win all the small pots and lose all the big ones and if you start running bad .... The players change names on paradise so much that I would not label players as bad and play junk fast into them in the 10 handed tighter games but some players mite.

Joe, I agree that A-rag is often a terrible hand to get involved with, but it appears that you are focusing on the hand more than the situation.


As any expert knows, the situation is more important than the cards. In this situation, it was crystal clear to me that I was ahead of my opponent. At that point, it doesn't matter what my hand is relative to premium hands, my hand is ahead. I think it's very important to be able to recognize situations where you hand, which would be marginal in other situations, is now very strong.


Let's put it this way. If you were in my place and somehow the guy showed you his cards, and you KNEW he would bet the turn if

you checked, wouldn't you check-raise him? You know he has only 5 outs.


I'm not convinced I played it right, but I'm still not convinced I played it wrong either.


natedogg

Natedog I hear what you are saying, but trust me you are wrong. Its just all in all bad poker. It goes to the old saying....do you want to win a lot of pots? or do you want to win a lot of money? In this hand you have a terrible kicker, you are out of position and the pot is very small. When he calls your bet on the flop what hand did you put him on? When he calls your check raise, what do you put him on? Lets look at all the hands that he could hold that leave you way behind. AA, QQ, 88, AQ, A8, Q8, Ax (x=any thing higer than your 5)Do you see where I'm going with this? This is all on the flop. What kind of hands could he be drawing to? J 10 gives him an open end str8 draw. Do you bet or check raise if a K or 9 hits the turn? I hope not!!! Do you see what I am saying?