I just can't beat 5/10SH...

[BusterStacks]

I simply cannot. Regardless of my success at full ring, I might as well be playing Crazy Pineapple when I go short-handed. It's funny, I can 4-table 5/10 full and browse 2+2, but here I am 2-tabling 6max and I have to calculate the value of every single move to a degree that is not possible for me to do in real time.

Maybe I'm just not good postflop. I was thinking about this while laying in bed last night. (It was either that or pull my hair out)... I figure it like this: simple, TAG, ABC-poker can win at a good clip against many bad opponents. Even if you make small errors often, there are enough bad people around when you have a winner to sustain a healthy winrate. At 6max, I'm constantly having to play supernatural poker. Sometimes I will evaluate the flop, and decide I have the best hand and play accordingly, and usually I do. However, the majority of the time, I can't really say for certain where I am, and my natural instinct is that I'm beat (a la full ring). Sometimes I folded the winner, but how can I know?! I don't understand the redistribution of hand value in shorthanded play, whereas in full ring, I can narrow down what my opponent is holding to the point where I feel confident and correct in the resulting play.

I lurk in here every day, and even in the hand reviews, I can never really put people on anything. It's not obvious like it is in full. I'm always in marginal situations, getting checkraised by nothing, folding my winner, or losing with what I would have to figure is the winner. Granted I took some horrendous beats, but even if I had not, I would have still lost.

I just wanted to vent, you guys always talk about how soft and easy the 5/10sh game is. Well it'snot for everyone. I read all the books, I do all the hand reviews, I play every day. Hell, this is my sole source of income. I don't know why I can't play shorthanded, I'm sure I'm a winning player. I just would rather push a 75% edge 50 times than a 55% edge 200 times.

A few times I would feel like I was really playing well. But then, you make a few bad plays and bam! -10bb... What the [censored]. Eventually I just had to pack it up AGAIN, figuring I couldn't stomach any more losses. I feel that I lost more than my play would reflect, but I am not a winner at this point. Worst of all, I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Here are some meaningless stats for me this month:
http://home.comcast.net/~hn_cobra/decstats.JPG

[Grisgra]

You've been around awhile, Buster. You should know better than to post that you can't beat a limit after a lousy 1000 hands.

And your VP$IP is way too low, and my guess is you fold too much if you auto-assume-you're-beat. Get in there and take the lead with squat, dammit.

[BusterStacks]

dude.. I posted my other shots at 6max. this is my THIRD. I feel entitled to whine a little.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
dude.. I posted my other shots at 6max. this is my THIRD. I feel entitled to whine a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

So then you've already been told that you don't defend your BB often enough, you're too tight pf, and you probably don't bluff at all/fold too often. In other words, you're not adjusting in the least to the fact that this is a SH game.

So why haven't you made those adjustments yet, Mr. Third Time? /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[BusterStacks]

because I am weak-tight. Thanks. Besides, a winner at SH told me I could at least be a small winner using my regular ring strategy, so thats what I tried this time.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
because I am weak-tight. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then go down to 1/2 and start raising like a mf. You've got to get rid of that weak-tight nonsense if you're going to play SH. I also recommend trying the Paradise 1/2 and 3/6 -- they're usually very loose-passive, and it's less likely you'll have to deal with confusing aggression on those tables. That's where I cut *my* teeth. (Really nice games, too . . . )

I suppose it's possible you could eke out 0.5BB or 1BB/100 playing usual ring strategy, but then drops like you just had are going to be even more common . . .

[BusterStacks]

I was under the impression that 1/2SH didn't really help that much. Not true?

[ctv1116]

The 5/10 game is definitely not as easy as it used to be...lots of people are playing LAG which just makes variance go way up.

[Grisgra]

I haven't played a ton of 1/2 SH on Party (a lot more on Paradise) but I can't imagine it NOT helping. Sure the players are different, and the style is different, but you're kind of starting from scratch here. You need to see/practice over a few thousand hands:

1) The kinds of hands that scoop pots (vs full-ring)
2) How to get reads on players (whether they call down with A-high, whether they raise on draws, etc.) that you might not have learned during full-ring if you get by without reads.
3) Letting yourself lose $$ by being wacky-raising-man on some semibluffs. You might find that it works in some situations more than you'd expect. (This actually will work better in 5/10 than in 1/2, of course.)

All I know is it worked for me . . . there's a LOT of adjustment between 1/2 and 5/10, of course, but it looks to me like you need to learn the basics of SH first, and move on from there.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
this is my THIRD. I feel entitled to whine a little.


[/ QUOTE ]

after 1k hands? are you serious? it took me 28k hands to start beating 5/10 cosistently. it's taken good players like guy mcksucker 25k and he's still not beating it. and you come in here with 1k hands and feel you're entitled to whine? considering how many posts you have i'm very surprised.

also, you have a meaningless sample size at 5/10 full as well, so there's no proof you can even beat that game.

about your numbers: VP$IP = good, PFR = too low, you want something like 13-17, WSD = too high, ~33% is optimal, you're probably calling down too much, W$@SD = too low, and is a function of your high WSD and running bad.

[joker122]

one thing i forgor to mention is that many, myself included, have noticed that over the last month or so 5/10 has played more like 10/20 and significantly tougher than usual. so, you picked an unfortunate time to take a shot.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
one thing i forgor to mention is that many, myself included, have noticed that over the last month or so 5/10 has played more like 10/20 and significantly tougher than usual. so, you picked an unfortunate time to take a shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy, I just started playing these games like two weeks ago and i think they are awesome! I can't imagine they were that much better? Wow. Where's the time machine. oh yeah, and I started off these games with a -110 BB downswing and STILL knew they were awesome.

I got it back in the green today with a very good winning session. Now I'm up 26BB. Major comeback in a week. The aggression usually doesn't bother me, in fact I had some very good tables today, I had three tables and i had Tags on my left in all three and loose passive on my right in all three, recipe for a great session when the one pair hands hold up for $100 plus pots.

[Tosh]

This thread is embarrasing from someone who has been here more than 6 months.

[wahooriver]

Several thoughts

1. Do play Party 1/2 6 max - accumulate around 10k hands. This game is extraordinarily easy. Play it with GameTime +.

2. Learn to adjust your play according to your read of the bettor. I sometimes call a likely loser early in the session just to see what the bettor has. Sometimes I surprisingly win.

3. Always consider the postflop raises could be draws. Many SH players will raise on flush or straight draws.

4. Loosen your starting standards a bit (I like 25% VP$IP). Especially pay attention to position. You can and should be much looser from the button. I have a VP$IP around 30% on the button and 20% UTG.

5. Bet hard when you have a good hand - most of the time. You can vary the occasional tricky slowplay - it sometimes does work.

6. Value suitedness in your broadway cards.

7. Start playing one game at a time to learn the rhythm of the game.

5/10 is very beatable - in the long run. You must have great patience and eat some horrible beats.

I sometimes even make some "stupid" plays early to make my opponents think I'm an idiot.

To repeat - if you are not playing with GameTime + or PlayerView then you are making a huge mistake. They are probably worth 1 BB/100 in SH play.

I'm a 12k hand relative novice - but everything that I see suggests that you can adapt. It is a different game - but I believe a much more enjoyable game (more hands, more action, more stress).

And that's my not so humble opinion.

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is my THIRD. I feel entitled to whine a little.


[/ QUOTE ]

after 1k hands? are you serious? it took me 28k hands to start beating 5/10 cosistently. it's taken good players like guy mcksucker 25k and he's still not beating it. and you come in here with 1k hands and feel you're entitled to whine? considering how many posts you have i'm very surprised.

also, you have a meaningless sample size at 5/10 full as well, so there's no proof you can even beat that game.

about your numbers: VP$IP = good, PFR = too low, you want something like 13-17, WSD = too high, ~33% is optimal, you're probably calling down too much, W$@SD = too low, and is a function of your high WSD and running bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been playing 5/10 full for months, these stats are for december only.

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is embarrasing from someone who has been here more than 6 months.

[/ QUOTE ]

This post is ironic coming from a player as overrated as yourself.

[BusterStacks]

Btw, I agree that 1k hands is hardly a shot, but it is indicative of the fact that despite mentally feeling a lot better at poker, I am unable to pull even a breakeven run.

[joker122]

ok so how many hands do you have total?

[Macdaddy Warsaw]

I'll second playing 1/2 SH considering you say you're weak-tight. I love weak-tighties at my SH (not as much as loose-passives but...) because their play is very predictable.

Do what Grisgra said and go to 1/2 SH and start being TAG. I played a lot of 1/2 SH (it was the first limit game I played after transitioning from no-limit) and I wouldn't be half as successful at 5/10 SH if I hadn't had the SH experience.

It sounds like 5/10 SH is the first 6-max game you're playing, and it's hard to jump into a game where it's very common to start off 5 or more BBs down. It may not be a problem for you, but when I started, I had difficulty with the fact that 50 BBs = $500. 50 BBs is nothing at 5/10 SH. I was fortunate when I started playing 5/10 because I went on a huge upswing first (150 BBs)...I then dropped about 110. If I had lost 110 BBs right off the bat, I probably wouldn't still be playing 5/10 SH (I just started recently).

Just give it some more time, play some 1/2 SH, and you'll be fine.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
This post is ironic coming from a player as overrated as yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting and pathetic. First, how others choose to rate me is nothing to do with me. Second, not that I need to defend myself to you but I have no denial in the fact I post way less to do with strategy than I used to. Thirdly, before I move on, this has nothing to do with this thread.


Back on topic; this thread is a total joke, and whats worse is you don't even know why, despite the claims you will no doubt come out with.

[Guy McSucker]

Hey Buster,

For what it's worth...

People who've looked at my play on these games seem to think I do things okay, and I'm losing a decent sum in this game after just over 25k hands. I've got some good pointers by posting hands here and getting people to look over histories in blocks of 100 hands, though, and would recommend you do the same.

Jay (1800GAMBLER) pointed up a systematic mistake I was making, which was failing to stab at small pots when it's possible everyone hates the flop. That has helped a good deal.

Besides that, I've determined I need to:

1) make better reads
2) tilt less
3) run better.

(3) is probably the most important for me, and I am going to hazard a guess and say it would be for you, too (your W$SD is horrible!). Since I can't control that, I'm focussing on (1) and (2). I don't know if they apply to you but it's possible.

You also need to defend your BB more. Doing so will nudge up the VP$IP closer to the kind of level people recommend round here. Then master (3) and you'll be golden.

Ad (2):

I have gone back to playing the Stars $3/6 6-max lately, and noticed something interesting about myself: I can sit down and lose 30BB in that game, not worry about it, and play on at my best. Frequently those 30BB losses get wiped out and then some in the hands that follow. In the Party $5/10, my prolonged bout of losing and thoughts of "I always lose", coupled with the increased stakes, mean that a 30BB slide at the start of a session really gets under my skin and knocks my game off kilter. No good. I am not sure how to counter this but at least I've recognised it.

Ad (1): Hmmm. I am not much of a reader. Never have been. Just needs work I guess.

Good luck,

Guy.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
about your numbers: VP$IP = good, PFR = too low, you want something like 13-17, WSD = too high, ~33% is optimal, you're probably calling down too much, W$@SD = too low, and is a function of your high WSD and running bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is 33% really optimal for WSD?? I only had about 20k hands at 5/10 before moving to 10/20, but I'm pretty sure I was beating the game for at least something (2.9 BB/100 after 20k), and my WSD was just under 38. At 10/20 its been just over 38, as I find myself in more HU pots, and calling down LAGs more with Ahigh, but I've won enough of these showdowns to think that I'm not calling down way too much.

BTW, even though this is only for december its still a joke that you would even show a PT shot of 1k hands... at 6max I rarely play a session that isn't more than 1k hands.

[joker122]

a winrate of almost 3bb/100 over 20k hands suggests you're running well so your WSD would be higher. but i don't know how you play and you could actually be a 3bb winner and always pick the right times to showdown.

i feel like i call down too much anyway so i don't see how i could possibly get mine up to 38.

[hypermegachi]

wanna post some aggression numbers?

[Turning Stone Pro]

Playing so few hands in short-handed play. An expert short-handed player like myself would beat you 92 out of 100 times if we played 2000 hands or more.

You need to significantly loosen up your starting hand requirements.

TSP

[sammy_g]

Buster,

From your stats, it looks like you might have two issues:

* You need to be attacking and defending the blinds more, particularly defending. You're folding your big blind too much to steals.

* You're going to showdown too much. The game is shorthanded, but you still need to the best hand to win a showdown.

So, briefly then: fold less before the flop and fold more after the flop. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Oh, and I know you know 1K hands is not enough. You might get better responses if you post combined stats from all three shots you took at this game.

Also, you're running bad.

Good luck...

[helpmeout]

Dont post your worthless 1100 hands at 5/10 6max, post all of your hands at that limit as well as aggression, check/raise and folded to river stats.

All we can say from 1100 hands is that you are too tight, you cant play this tight at 6max because the blind money eats you up.

[Alobar]

1100 hands??? geez dude, come on. I played 1100 hands today alone. I started out on a -90BB slide and finished only down 10bb, should I assume I cant beat 5/10 as well? 1100 hands isnt [censored]. If 1100 hands was indicitive of your skill at a level, no one who was a winning player would ever have a bad day. If you wanna whine about a bad session, thats fine (and your $500 loss in 1100 hands wouldnt even justify a bad session whine). Seriosuly, if you cant handle it, then go back to the full ring. There is no shame in that. not everyone is cut out for the variance. Also, if those are your only 5/10 full hands, you might not even be a winner there either. And your VPIP is waay to low at the 6max.

good luck

[Bob L]

I played full time 5-10 short for about 1-year and half at party and I can tell you for sure that if you use 10 handed strategy at a 6 max table -you will get destroyed.Playing short hand is a completely different game than full tables.I really recommend you taking lessons from a short hand expert or if your lucky enough to have experts as friends then mooch as much off them as possible.I have taught a few players for as much as 2500 and I tell you I really think info like that is worth way more than that.Theres a poster (shawn?) who is an expert short hand player telling posters here that he will teach players for a very large fee (for 4 hours ?)anyway if its legit -this maybe well worth the money -despite the mockeries of alot of people on this site.
Anyway if you can't get someone to teach you then I'd recommend you stay at the full tables.If you still insist on playing short tables here are a few tips:
1.Generally speaking you should be raising,reraising or folding preflop.
2.Tight aggressive is the style you want but generally speaking you want to have an image of being loose.
3.Make sure you can adapt when table is headsup,3 handed to 5-6 handed becuase strategy does change.
4.Make sure you observe closely your opponents and adjust accordingly to their playing styles.
5.Be prepared for horrendous beats and massive bankroll swings.

Again these are generalizations and whatever you decide to do -good luck.

[ChicagoTroy]

First off, I sympathize. You're a sharp guy, and as a fairly sharp guy myself I find it maddenning when I can't figure out a way to beat idiots, which $5-10 short is indeed full of. Apart from a pit stop in the psychology forum, here are a couple things that have jumped out at me from your stats and the fact that I think I have a bunch of hands against you in the full games (I struggle in the $5-10 full, which pisses me off to no end).

First off, you are simply going to have to learn to LAG it up. Make 1/1/05 - 1/15/05 Laggy time, and force your 6-max VP$IP up to AT LEAST 25%. I think one of the reasons you may be struggling is that up until now you haven't found yourself in a whole lot of marginal postflop situations with your preflop standards in full games. You have to do this for no other reason than that a VP$IP of 17 puts a sign on your back to anybody with PT, and identifying those players is harder in 6-max. You're going to see a lot of turn semibluff tomfoolery.

IMO 6-max has a lot less to do with specific hand reading than full and more to do with equity across a sometimes big range of possible holdings.

Perhaps sending 100 hands to a friend for review who's been successful at this level and moved up wouldn't be a bad idea...

Best of luck, you'll figure it out.

[joker122]

when you make these types of posts are you serious?

[LSUfan1]

I just started playing some SH at 5/10, and you wouldn't believe how much the 1/2 will help. It is a much more passive game, but you can gain a ton from the SH style of play!

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
I played full time 5-10 short for about 1-year and half at party and I can tell you for sure that if you use 10 handed strategy at a 6 max table -you will get destroyed.Playing short hand is a completely different game than full tables.I really recommend you taking lessons from a short hand expert or if your lucky enough to have experts as friends then mooch as much off them as possible.I have taught a few players for as much as 2500 and I tell you I really think info like that is worth way more than that.Theres a poster (shawn?) who is an expert short hand player telling posters here that he will teach players for a very large fee (for 4 hours ?)anyway if its legit -this maybe well worth the money -despite the mockeries of alot of people on this site.
Anyway if you can't get someone to teach you then I'd recommend you stay at the full tables.If you still insist on playing short tables here are a few tips:
1.Generally speaking you should be raising,reraising or folding preflop.
2.Tight aggressive is the style you want but generally speaking you want to have an image of being loose.
3.Make sure you can adapt when table is headsup,3 handed to 5-6 handed becuase strategy does change.
4.Make sure you observe closely your opponents and adjust accordingly to their playing styles.
5.Be prepared for horrendous beats and massive bankroll swings.

Again these are generalizations and whatever you decide to do -good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

tell ya what, turn me into a winner and i'll give you 2500.

[BusterStacks]

Thanks ChicagoTroy, you seem to know how I am feeling when it comes to not being able to beat idiots. This is perhaps the worst part. I have no problem dropping 50bb in full ring, because I know I played pretty well. In 6max however, it is very stressful. Maybe I'm spewing chips because I suck. Am I even doing this right? These things running constantly through my brain put me on tilt much faster and harder than any monetary losses. I think I will recover my confidence at the full game for a while, and dive into some 1/2 6max during the second half of January. I do appreciate those of you that took the time to sympathize and reply with good advice, despite the n00bery of my post. I really do. Thanks.