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View Full Version : Paradise and Instant messenger re K Rose,bobcards


09-25-2001, 07:28 AM
Overheard on a table chat yesterday:


Q (cant remember who,kept hand history ,can check) to "Frankie Bllz" "Are you in a crew with Bob(cards?)and K rose ?


A from Frankie Bllz: "No , I've got my own crew"


Interesting considering LastChance's little comment last week how he was "talking" (without chats) to K rose and bobcards on a table.Just what is a "crew" and if it is what I suspect how coincidental is it that we hear of so many river suck outs by bobcards and friends.I for one know that I could do a lot more(or save more)with my draws if I knew via instant messenger of 6,8 or even 10 cards that were dealt in the pockets and wont come out on the turn or river and consequently the increased probability of hitting a card that's still in the pack.


What protection can Paradise offer us from MSN messenger cartel's or should we just give up online poker period

09-25-2001, 10:23 AM
There's never going to be a point where you can be comfortable with the security. The only way you could continue to play is if you're a consistant, solid winner.

09-25-2001, 10:41 AM
Your are pretty dumb if you could believe that players would openly say that they are teams and that they use instant messenger to collude.

I believe your Paradise name is Elway from Johannesburg. I only see you playing once in a while with an $80 buyin which probably means you are a losing player. Furthermore, if you would even investigate your claim, you would see that K Rose, bobcards, and lastchance NEVER play at the same table which would diffuse your major claim.

You should have facts to back up your claims, douchebag.


-Tony T.

09-25-2001, 11:00 AM
For your information Tony,bobcards and K Rose often play together on $20 $40 HE

09-25-2001, 11:28 AM
You are pretty dumb if you think that there are no teams playing together at Paradise.


- Andrew

09-25-2001, 11:42 AM
"Big John":


Why would you post serious accusations like this anonymously, and with no hand history or game number? You don't mention anything about reporting it to Paradise. Why would colluders openly discuss their cheating in a public chat? On a credibility scale of 1 to 10, I give this post a ZERO.

09-25-2001, 01:50 PM
Unethical: Communicating about hands while in progress, softplaying, and whipsawing.


Ethical: Combining bankrolls with people you trust to enjoy

lower variance, and a higher earn by being able to play higher.


I personally know of an example of the second sort on Paradise.(I'm not in it, a lone wolf by nature. I was on a blackjack team once. When it works its very very cool, when it doesn't it can get very very stessfull.) My point here is obviously that the mere existance of teams does not automatically mean cheating. And Ironically, this would be the sort of team that would declare itself openly without a sense of shame.


So, lets say you are a reasonably intelligent, fairly suspicious

poker player, sitting at a table and starting to suspect a couple players. How long would it take to find a few hands that

are suspicious? Is it that impossible for the focused player to

find some credible evidence? I've been thinking about it since

I started this thread, and I know its a significant handicap not to have the mucked hands.


But...


The most obvious, in which two players whipsaw and one folds quietly at the end, is pretty simple. I think I'd be almost satisfied with two occurences between the same two players in

a session, and three would clinch it. But NOT one though. Theres

just to much testorone pumped wackiness to get suspicious after

a single breakout of compulsive mouse clicking.


Softplaying might stand out too, if two normally aggressive players slow down after its head's up. This would need some statistical evidence, but still not too hard. The following metric might suffice: For every hand that players x or y saw the showdown, cull the hands that were heads up after the flop or turn and were multiway on the flop. Determine the percentages of

aggresive(bet, raise) and passive (check call) actions. Compare that to the percentages in the hands they are head up. If these

numbers are very far apart (say 80% aggressive normally, 5% aggessive with each other) this eveidence should be come statistically credible fairly quickly. A measurement error SD

would be ~.7/(num_actions)^.5 , so maybe a 40 hands with 4 or 5

x and y showdowns could give a 95% confidence level.


The hardest seem to be just using info adjust drawing odds info.

Folding AQ utg, beacuse of the AK three doors down. Not bothering to draw to split the pot with identical 1-card open straight draws. Knowing your flush draw is dead, or 2 of your outs are gone.


Bad news: I think its nearly impossible to catch this without revealed hands. Paradise claims to have a filter to flag the most obvious cases, like the AQ fold to the AK, which I believe,

but I'm sure there's a limit to its sensitivity. Because such information is relevant for relatively close decisions, it would take a long time for convergence of statistical evidence; certainly more time than we can reasonably expect from our diligent slueth.


Good news: Such information is relevant for relatively close decisions, so it doesnt affect your winrate in the 1st decimal place, in my opinion. Players that can accurately use this information are already not going to be dropping much for you to pick up anyway. And players that have the mental endurance to

accurately process and communicate this info, while still staying intently focused on the game for extended periods of time, may rare, perhaps rare to the point of fiction. I find it fully credible that people are out there, im'ing furiously back and forth, folding smugly while rubbing their hands together with cackling glee, but until I see some hands showing they kept their own house in order during all their scheming, I say I'll take the risk.


zooey


P.S. I got off track. The reason I worte is I'd like to discourage public accusations without _some_ evidence. I mean, if you suspect somebody then write to Paradise. They have kicked people off and will continue to do so. If you're going to accuse people in a public forum, credibility should demand that some small burden be bourn.

09-25-2001, 01:57 PM
I routinely fold AQ and especially AJ in early position. After doing so, I have seen someone win the pot with AK and AA more than once.


natedogg

09-25-2001, 02:03 PM

09-25-2001, 03:04 PM
OK Smartasses,go call up these 3 hands (consecutive hands on that tbl) and look at the chat,then tell me how else you interpret it?


112 506 859 , 112 506 992 , 112 507 130

09-25-2001, 03:32 PM
Alas, I think the days a lone player can make money online are numbered. I don't see any way around it.


Tom D

09-25-2001, 03:32 PM
"Theres just to much testorone pumped wackiness to get suspicious after a single breakout of compulsive mouse clicking."


Ohhhhhh.........compulsive mouse clicking!!!! Cats love compulsive mouse clicking!!!


URMeowed

09-25-2001, 03:37 PM
Yes, the days are numbered but the number begins with a minus sign. The window of opportunity to make money online in an honest fashion has passed quite a while ago. Time to get back into the brick and mortar card rooms and slowly earn back what you have lost online.

09-25-2001, 03:37 PM
Yeah I agree. How can you consistently beat players who take the worst of it all the time? I'm going back to selling catnip on the black market.


URMeowed

09-25-2001, 03:42 PM
So that nobody else has to pull three hand histories to see five lines of chat, I will copy and paste the comments below as a public service.


Card Angel said, "nice."

Card Angel said, "frankie you one of bob's and lc's crew?"

FrankieBllz said, "i got my own crew"

Card Angel said, "bob k-rose lc?"

FrankieBllz said, "met them on here"

09-25-2001, 03:45 PM
What am I suppose to do with the $8700 I won this past month??? Why didn't you tell me the window of opportunity was gone darn it? You hate cats don't you?


URMeowed


=^._.^=

09-25-2001, 03:48 PM
I hope Mason will cut me a little slack here if this post is indeed seen as too much of a plug for Planet.


If collusion is a big concern at Paradise, I would suggest Planet Poker. While I can't say that collusion does not occur there, I can say that it is way more likely to be caught there given (a) the smaller base of players and (b) the presence of Roy Cooke who I am told (and believe) regularly watches out for collusion.


If only enough of you Pardise cats moved to Planet, they may have a 20-40 game on a regular basis again!

09-25-2001, 04:34 PM
HEHEHE Roy Cooke, the new Svengali.....I didnt know he was psychic?


Planet's a waste of time.

09-25-2001, 04:43 PM
Well lets think this one threw. I play paradise poker and I use AOL therefore I have a messenger. I also have friends who I talk to on the messenger. Some of these friends play pp as well. Sometimes we talk while playing. We talk about a lot of things not just poker as we can do more than one thing at a time. However you morons never cease to amaze us with your poor play and we love to share that as well. So whenever we get a hand history of some idiot doing something retarded we show it to each other instead of just posting it here and whining. Say me and bobcards are having a nice little chat generally this occurs while he is playing ring games and I am waiting for a nice juicy short game or headsup (the only thing I play and never with bob or lc or any other actual friends) I do not try to play with my friends as this post stated, rather I never play with them no matter if it is bobcards jack17 hawkeye and whosbad all there in one 20-40 (about the best tbl one could possably imagine) i wont screw bob and ill let him win countless amounts of money. So me and bob are having out lil chat and he happens to get AA, note that I am not at his tbl but we are talking. Now my friend bob gets all excited and he goes AA!! i go gl and generally load up the tbl to watch. Then when the board on the river is is kqj92ssss and bob has a couple red aces and he gets bet into he'll go damn can i fold this and i go well id prolly call and he folds it on his own (much tighter than I am).

These chats also are good examples of what goes on between the rest of my FRIENDS. We are not some pp gang out to screw ppl over u paraniod retard. All we are is a group of friends who happen to talk about poker from time to time. I honestly cannot imagine playing pp all alone with noone to talk to about it (how boring just sitting and clicking riase). YOU should try it get some freinds it really helps. Nothing makes you feel better after losing 2k to the fullmoon from netanya than finding out bob just lost with kings to the q4 the pie defended. Oh we also lend each other money to make sure we dont go broke online. Does any of this give us some unfiar advantage i dont think so. I dont usually post on here but this was so stupid i felt i had too. I v rarely play a hand at a tbl with more than 5 ppl unless it has just filled and I am leavign at my blind. There are plenty of idiots online that I dont need to play with my friends at the tbl and win their money. I like them I dont want their money. U have never seen me at a tbl playing with lastchance or bobcards and there are many other of my friends i refuse to play with. Just becasue ppl talk doesnt mean its collusion.


k_rose (chester)!!

09-25-2001, 05:54 PM
Thats not entirely true. we DO play together at times, but only when we're on simoultaneously, and when we cant avoid it based on the number of people online and the accessibilities of other tables. there is no reason for us to lie about that. im' sure paradise poker is well aware we play at the same table at times but do avoid it whenever we can. there's a reason that we only play 1 20/40 table while playing 1-1 or we dont sit after being summoned but instead we sit at a 15/30 short handed table. there are definitly times when we sit together as a result of there only being 3 tables open at any given time. anyone with eyes knows that.


its pretty rare that we go out of our way to sit with one another though because of the feeling that we may be cheating with one another. additionally, k_rose NEVER sits with us and never plays a ring game. one other thing, we never play together at a ring game if its short handed. you'll never see us at the same table with less than 7-8 others making an almost packed table.


we have never ever teamplayed anyone and it happens very often that we raise and reraise each other with probably very good hands when it's just him and i in the hand. we dont split monies won at any point and for the most part dont even like each other. other than that if you have some security concerns or problems you should voice them to PP and not whine about something that doesn't effect you at all.


one other thing you can do is open up a 20/40 table and ask any regular if he's EVER seen anything suspicious out of erik, LC, bobcards or K_rose. they'll probably be very honest about it and i'm sure if the people with 10-25k bankrolls who frequent those tables were worried they would take some sort of action.


-LC.


ps. if you do email PP about and part of this, feel free to request i get my chats back

09-25-2001, 08:24 PM
Ah, its a treat to to hear someone enjoy a sentence I worked on. Thanks, cSat.


zooey

09-25-2001, 09:20 PM
I think the point is that if you ONLY folded AQ early when another player had AK, it would be a flag. If you also fold AQ early when there is not an AK behind you, it is just a routine play.


Of course the Paradise watcher program, if it exists, has to be smart enough to check for both cases.

09-25-2001, 09:56 PM
Teams do obviously indicate ex[licit cheating. Anyone who thinks teams don't imply cheating must be on a team.

09-25-2001, 09:59 PM
Collusion has existed from the start.

09-26-2001, 07:24 AM
DONT EVER GO TO PLANET.


You think 4 weeks time for a cashout check is a good service?


Here's a reply just gotten from them when asking where a cashout check was. If you wanna risk it, be my guest. I am glad this was my final cashout from them, and I don't play there any more. If you want to play at a good up and coming online poker room, go to PartyPoker.com.


Hello XXXXXXXXXX


We apologize for not getting back to you right away but we have received many inquries regarding cashouts that have not been received and this has caused us to realize that there is indeed a problem with a certain batch of bank drafts.


In light of the fact that several players have not received their cashout cheques issued on or about August 30th we are proceeding with a full investigation.


We are contacting our bank first thing tomorrow morning and advising them of the situation. As soon as we hear back from them regarding the status of these cheques we will initiate the stop-payment process.


We appreciate your patience in this matter and wish to advise you that we are taking immediate action.


Please let us know if you require further assistance.


Planet Poker P$e-Cash Support


/Yvonne

psecash@planetpoker.com

www.planetpoker.com (http://www.planetpoker.com)